The CHAIRMAN. You couldn't say whether or not their next program is a man-in-space program?

Dr. GLENNAN. We have had the usual information coming from scientific journals, and that type of thing, indicating their very great interest in placing a man in space. The types of experiments that they have made using dogs and that sort of thing certainly would indicate that this is the direction in which they are pointing.

The CHAIRMAN. So you think the direction still remains the samethat is, toward a man-in-space vehicle? Have you any estimate as to when they may achieve, or may attempt the achievement of that objective?

Dr. GLENNAN. I really don't, Mr. Chairman. I think both Dr. Dryden and I have the feeling that they have perhaps an earlier capability in making the attempt if they want to do it. This arises out of the fact that they have been in this business a little bit longer with propulsion vehicles of a greater capacity and capability than ours. The CHAIRMAN. In making that observation, you are really applying our own experiences and projecting them to their experiences? Dr. GLENNAN. That is right, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We don't have any information available anywhere to indicate they have given up an interest in space, do we?

Dr. GLENNAN. No, I don't think so. Certainly I wonder at times, as I know the members of this committee must, why they don't fire more frequently than they do. One can only imagine, I think, that they have set a particular course for themselves and that they are laying as they normally would do all their efforts on that particular

course.

If this happens to be man in space, I think that there is a reasonable chance that they are going to be able to launch that man within a reasonable period in the future.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think that they are experimenting in discharging missiles or rockets in space, and we don't know about it? Dr. GLENNAN. I can't believe but what they are continuing to experiment with missiles and rockets, Mr. Chairman. But I don't have direct information on that.

The CHAIRMAN. We have no record, do we, of any missiles, outside of satellites, of the Russians having fired anything beyond the territorial limits of Russian Siberia, do we?

Dr. GLENNAN. I am not aware of any.

The CHAIRMAN. The overall amount you set forth in this bill, I think you stated you thought would be adequate for the next 12 months?

Dr. GLENNAN. Right, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You gave us a very extensive and a very fine briefing on the work of NASA earlier in this session. Are there any changes in the program of NASA that you would like to present to this committee?

Dr. GLENNAN. Would like to present to the committee? I think this will be done by the gentlemen who are going to support these activities, and there will be a sufficient extrapolation so that you can see where we are heading, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. So there are no major changes. Otherwise you would have wanted to present them yourself.

Mr. Sisk?

Mr. SISK. Dr. Glennan, I would just like to inquire along the lines of the chairman's last question there. This goes back to your recommendations last year, and further statements as to reviews of the problem regarding your taking over a substantial part of the personnel of the Army Ballistic Missile Agency.

What is your thinking on that at the present time?

Dr. GLENNAN. It hasn't changed, Mr. Sisk. We are using the Army Ballistic Missile Agency for quite a number of activities. We have recently given them responsibility for two or three particular payloads. This relationship seems to be working out very well indeed. There has been no real change in the situation since I last saw you. Mr. SISK. There has been no recent review of any decision on this matter?

Dr. GLENNAN. No, sir.

Mr. SISK. Let me ask you this: You speak about the contracts you have. Can you give the committee the total of the contracts you have with ABMA at the present time?

Dr. GLENNAN. I will be glad to supply it to you. I think it is in excess of $20 million, and probably close to $24 million, as I recall

it.

(The information is as follows:)

As of this date, $22,976,000 has been allocated for seven projects which are being conducted by Army Ballistics Missle Agency for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

Mr. SISK. That frankly was my understanding. It is somewhere around $20 million to $25 million. Frankly that was the thing that caused a little bit of concern. Do you feel that you are utilizing the services of ABMA to the fullest extent?

Dr. GLENNAN. I think we are utilizing the services of ABMA to the fullest practicable extent at the present time, Mr. Sisk.

Mr. SISK. Are there reasons why you are contracting out into other sources substantially greater contracting size than you are granting to ABMA? Is there some reason for that?

Dr. GLENNAN. Yes, the fact that we are using Thor boosters and Atlas boosters. We would normally then go to the Ballistic Missile Agency of the Department of the Air Force for their assistance in matters of that kind. As our program moves along, we will be moving away from the Jupiter-Redstone missile group as being inadequate in capability to handle the satellites, probes and payloads that we send aloft.

Mr. SISK. Let me ask you this: With the proposed budget now which you have outlined here in total, can you give the committee any information as to what percentage of that may be placed with АВМА?

Dr. GLENNAN. About the same amount.

Mr. SISK. About $20 or $25 million?

Dr. GLENNAN. That's right, sir.

Mr. SISK. That then leads me to some concern. I am a little bit curious, then, as to why your original interest, Dr. Glennan, and the desire apparently of NASA to absorb the personnel, the team of ABMA, because apparently there is no intention to use them to any extent then in your program.

41011-59- 2

Dr. GLENNAN. Mr. Sisk, I think you may be missing one very important factor here.

Mr. SISK. Possibly so. I wish you would enlighten me. That is why I am asking the questions.

Dr. GLENNAN. They are very heavily engaged at the present time on a booster called Saturn, and this is taking up a very substantial amount of their capacity, so they are engaged in space activity almost wholly, I would think. I think this is the reason for the statement about their activities at ABMA.

Had they come over to our jurisdiction, we would be supporting Saturn instead of ARPA.

Mr. SISK. Do you feel that there is any disadvantage to the Saturn program by it being handled as it is being handled?

Dr. GLENNAN. No, sir. We are represented on the management committee that is dealing with Saturn. We may well have the first flight with Saturn. We are very much interested in it. We think it is going along very well indeed. We have recommended that additional money be placed on it, which was done.

Mr. SISK. In other words, as I understand you, then, you are completely satisfied with the way that contract and that program is being operated by ABMA?

Dr. GLENNAN. As of the present time, we are, sir.

Mr. SISK. You do not feel there would have been any particular gain had it been transferred to NASA?

Dr. GLENNAN. I wouldn't want to go on record as answering that one way or the other. This would seem to me to be casting aspersions at our good friends in ARPA and I don't propose to do that. I think they are doing a good job, and we are working with them, and we are satisfied that we are both getting on with the job that needs to be done.

Mr. SISK. I appreciate that, Dr. Glennan. I did not in any means intend to place you in a position of taking sides against ARPA. The only concern-and I know others have shared this because they have asked me to what extent the capacities, the ability, of ABMA to perform was being used.

There has been some question, and frankly there has been a question in my mind, whether or not they are being used to their fullest capabilities down there, because that team in my opinion is one of the greatest teams in the Nation.

Dr. GLENNAN. We quite agree with that.

Mr. SISK. In the progress they have made in this field. I am just concerned about the relationship between NASA and ABMA because we have a military responsibility, and I think ABMA should-I say this for the record, I have taken a position contrary to yours originally about this transfer, because I felt that because of this military responsibility, these people should stay where they were as a team and have not been too favorable, let's say, to any mass transfer here.

But at the same time it was my understanding that your relations with ABMA were very good.

Dr. GLENNAN. They are.

Mr. SISK. The last time

Dr. GLENNAN. They are.

you

testified before.

Mr. SISK. Therefore that was the reason for my question with reference to the amount of work that was being placed with ABMA. They have at no time failed to cooperate with you, then, is that right?

Dr. GLENNAN. Not in any instance.

Mr. SISK. You feel they are working to the fullest capacity they possibly could at the moment in this Saturn program and with reference to its tie-in with the overall space program?

Dr. GLENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SISK. I think that is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wolf.

Mr. WOLF. Dr. Glennan, you are talking here about-in this No. 2 item, H.R. 2699-research and development $333 million, a third of a billion dollars.

Dr. GLENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOLF. That is a pretty general classification for $333 million. I wondered if somewhere there is a breakdown

Dr. GLENNAN. You will get a full disclosure of the whole thing. This is just a general statement. We have this staff of experts back of me to give you a detailed breakdown on everything you want to know.

The CHAIRMAN. May I say this to all of the members of the committee, some of whom came in a little late. We do have backup witnesses for all of these items. We expect to explore each one very carefully.

Mr. WOLF. I think my questions would be better fitted, then, of the backup witnesses.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Fulton.

Mr. FULTON. We are glad to have you here, sir. We are interested on this committee to see that there is adequate progress made in the space and science fields.

On the salaries and expenses, are you contemplating expanding present personnel, or is that pretty much the same personnel that you have?

Dr. GLENNAN. Mr. Fulton, we do have a complete story for this in our backup presentation.

Mr. FULTON. That is detail. Your general policy is what I am interested in.

Dr. GLENNAN. Actually we are proposing to expand our staff by approximately 1,027 positions.

Mr. FULTON. You recommend that as necessary?

Dr. GLENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. FULTON. Would that particular expansion, as well as these other figures and programs, be within the President's budget as proposed? Dr. GLENNAN. They will be.

Mr. FULTON. That applies to each of the programs, and no one of the programs is beyond the budget with another program less that you are recommending?

Dr. GLENNAN. If I understand your question correctly, the answer is "Yes."

Mr. FULTON. That means that each of the major programs is in line with the President's budget as well as the overall total, is that correct? Mr. GLENNAN. That's right, sir.

Mr. FULTON. Then, as you remember last year, I have been one of those who wants to move with speed and move with dispatch for our own security and defense as well as that of the free world. Could you put in the record for us a calendar of shots and programs that are proposed under this program so that we can have a calendar set up

with a short explanation of the particular program, and the effect it has on the other programs, and why you have put this ahead in calendaring rather than some other program?

Dr. GLENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. FULTON. For example, on inserting Venus shots-you intend to insert Venus shots, do you not, between moon shots?

Dr. GLENNAN. We have a schedule of shots, Mr. Fulton, for the next 33 months which we will be glad to give you. These shots, each of them, I think, are reasonably identified. They are not pinpointed as to the exact date, because this is a very difficult thing to do. It would be impossible, as a matter of fact, to try to give you exact dates on these things. But within quarters or 6-month periods we will be glad to do that.

The CHAIRMAN. I am wondering here if in Mr. Fulton's testimony you could read that schedule.

Mr. FULTON. I would rather do that later.

Dr. GLENNAN. We can have that in an executive session.

The CHAIRMAN. I will ask you later on.

Mr. FULTON. We all know there is a certain restricted amount of hardware and equipment that can be used, as well as installations. So, of course, the judgment as to which program particularly and which show is embarked upon at a particular time involves the balancing out and the delaying of other programs. So when you make the calendar, I would like to see what the problems are as to each program and why certain ones were put ahead or others behind.

I have been at Cape Canaveral, as well as other members, a number of times, and I think we are educated above the eighth grade level in this particular thing after several years--that you can't say the time and the hour and the date. But we do want to see what your policy is relative to the expediting of these programs, which I am sure I feel are necessary for the safety and security of this country.

For example, I am very interested in the weather and navigation satellites. The people who live along flood areas of course, floods and tornadoes as well as storms at sea, with people's lives being lost and tremendous damage how soon would you be able to have a weather satellite program started or in operation?

Dr. GLENNAN. We have a meteorological program started. The first of the units was fired from a Vanguard not long ago. The question as to when one may have an operational system is quite another question because there is a very great deal of information to be acquired. There is much new technology to be developed. One of the very real problems, very great problems in this particular area, is how you really get back the information, digest it, pull out that which is useful, and rebroadcast it to the parts of the world that may need it.

This is not a program that is going to be done overnight, Mr. Fulton. Mr. FULTON. But we already have a form of communications satellite with a capability already tested by two of the companies to discern large cloud masses or even large explosions. I would imagine you would be putting full steam ahead because if we had a weather satellite program, or meteorology or navigation program satellite in orbit, I believe that we might not even have to have the agreement with the Russians for the restriction on atomic explosions because we are insisting on an inspection system.