Mr. CHENEY. That, and my desire to see this country independent of Germany and not see us again put in the position we were in four or five years ago when we were almost at her mercy.

Mr. TREADWAY. What would be your suggestion as to the method of forming the licensing board?

Mr. CHENEY. The plan that has been proposed is satisfactory to

me.

Mr. TREADWAY. Proposed by whom?

Mr. CHENEY. By Mr. Choate, or the Chemical Foundation, I mean. Mr. TREADWAY. That is, a half a dozen consumers and half a dozen importers?

Mr. CHENEY. I believe five of each and one representative of the Government, who is neither a consumer nor a producer.

Mr. TREADWAY. All to be appointed by the President?

Mr. CHENEY. Well, I had not

Mr. TREADWAY. I think that is the form.

Mr. CHOATE. That is a mere detail, put in there simply to get a starting point for you gentlemen to discuss. The method of selection, it seems to me, is entirely a matter of legislation.

Mr. TREADWAY. I wanted to ask the gentleman the best way he considered of forming the board. The details arranged by the Chemical Foundation would be agreeable to you, as a business man; that is, for five consumers and five producers and one independent man, nominated by the President?

Mr. CHENEY. I believe that would operate fairly.

Mr. TREADWAY. May I ask one other question, Mr. Cheney? The list of goods that you manufacture is quite similar to that made by the Skinner Sons, of Holyoke?

Mr. CHENEY. We do not make all of our products in their line; their principal products are yarns dyed and linings and satins.

Mr. TREADWAY. The reason I asked the question is to know whether or not the answers you make to these questions would be probably such as a concern like Skinner & Co. would make also; that is, your interests are sufficiently allied?

Mr. CHENEY. Could I answer it this way: It is my opinion if I were in the Skinner company I would answer in the same way. Mr. TREADWAY. That is what I want.

STATEMENT OF MR. ANDREW C. IMBRIE, TREASURER THE UNITED STATES FINISHING CO., NEW YORK.

Mr. IMBRIE. We are in the business of bleaching, mercerizing, dyeing, printing, and finishing cotton cloths. We are not manufacturers of cloth, but our business is wholly that of processing the cloth that is sent to us for the various purposes I have mentioned. We operate five mills in Rhode Island and Connecticut and employ about 3,000 people and have an investment of about $10,000,000.

I have also been asked to speak to-day in behalf of the National Association of Finishers of Cotton Fabrics. This is an association of which we are members, which is comprised of about 60 firms in our line of business, and I venture to say that the members of that association do about 75 per cent of the finishing business of the United States.

As I stated, we are not makers of the cloth, but are dyers and printers and finishers only, and it is, therefore, I think, apparent that a steady supply of dyestuffs of adequate variety and substantial quality is of vital importance in our business. The value of the goods which go through our plants, speaking now of my own company, is probably six to eight times the amount of the finishing charge we make for the services we rende.

Talking for my own company, last year our business amounted to about $10,000,000 and I venture to state that the value of the merchandise that went through those plants was from $60,000,000 to $80,000,000 and all of this business is dependent upon our obtaining the dyestuffs, for while the money that we pay for dyes of our own is a relatively small part of the money we pay for materials, such as chemicals, etc., nevertheless, if we did not obtain dyes we could not do business, and it is for that reason we are interested in seeing built up in this country a permanent, adequate, and self-contained dye industry. The experience we had in the early part of the war is a sort of nightmare that we have no desire to repeat. The work that the American dyestuffs makers have done in the last few years is really little short of astonishing, and, as a consumer of dyes, I wish to testify to the appreciation we have of what they have done and our belief that if given proper Government assistance in the way that is proposed, eventually, and not many years from now, they will be in a position to compete with anybody. At the present time they need the assistance that the Government can give them, and we, as consumers, as the ones who will really bear the burden of the taxes that are placed on dyes by any tariff legislation, are willing to pay that in the nature of an insurance against a recurrence of the situation that was brought about at the early part of the war.

We are in accord with the request for protection, and we are also in entire sympathy with the proposal to establish a licensing system such as that which has been proposed by the Chemical Foundation. We believe that the two things should go together. We believe that the licensing system, while put forth as a temporary measure, perhaps, is one which is necessary at this time to build up the industry in this country in a permanent way.

Mr. MOORE. You have mentioned the Chemical Foundation and several other gentlemen have mentioned it. Will you tell us what it is?

Mr. IMBRIE. I think Mr. Choate proposes to go into the whole of that, sir, and he can tell you much more authoritatively than I can. Mr. MOORE. Is it a public or private association?

Mr. IMBRIE. The brief that they have presented I have read, and the members of our association, while they may not have read that brief, have had the same argument presented to them.

Mr. MOORE. Is not Mr. Garvan, the present Alien Property Custodian, the president of that association?

Mr. IMBRIE. I think he is.

Mr. MOORE. He holds the position of Alien Property Custodian and also that of president of that association?

Mr. CHOATE. That is true.

Mr. MOORE. Does Mr. Garvan intend to be heard on this matter? Mr. CHOATE. He did intend to be here.

Mr. MOORE. I am inclined to think it would be interesting and important to have Mr. Garvan here, in view of the fact that the Chemical Foundation, apparently a private association, at the head of which is a public official, enters into this whole matter.

Mr. COVINGTON. If, at the conclusion of Mr. Imbrie's statement, I can be allowed about three minutes, I think I can clear that matter up in reference to the proposed licensing system as differentiated from others presented to the committee.

Mr. IMBRIE. I have finished, unless you care to ask me questions. Mr. MOORE. You said you were in favor of a protective tariff and were also sympathetic with the proposed licensing system. May I ask you how you came to interest yourself in the licensing business?

Mr. IMBRIE. This is a matter that has been under discussion for some weeks by the persons engaged in our industry. We have had meetings to discuss this matter and, as Mr. Cheney has stated in his statement, which was read to your committee, a number of firms, including my own, in our industry, have indorsed the general plan which is now brought forth by the Chemical Foundation.

Mr. MOORE. Where did you first hear of the licensing system?
Mr. IMBRIE. As respects the dyestuff industry?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. IMBRIE. We heard it was in operation in England and later on it was presented to us by the gentlemen who were interested in the Chemical Foundation.

Mr. MOORE. It was brought up to your attention by the gentlemen interested in the Chemical Foundation?

Mr. IMBRIE. It was.

Mr. MOORE. That was your first knowledge that a licensing system was to be proposed?

Mr. IMBRIE. It was the first comprehensive plan that was presented to us for consideration. The matter had been discussed. Mr. MOORE. You mean comprehensive American plan?

Mr. IMBRIE. Yes.

Mr. MOORE. But in line with a system already in existence in Great Britain and other countries?

Mr. IMBRIE. I will not say that altogether. I think I cited the fact of a British licensing system, but to what extent their plan is modeled primarily or directly on the British plan I do not know.

Mr. MOORE. Although you say you do not know much about the Chemical Foundation, I think there is no doubt in the textile trade. generally in regard to the result of the adoption of a licensing system, and men who know certainly nothing about the licensing system before the war have suddenly become enamored of the licensing system and I want to know how this thing started, so far as you know. You got your first suggestion from the gentlemen who are interested in this corporation known as the Chemical Foundation?

Mr. IMBRIE. They presented the matter at a meeting of our association called for the purpose of listening to it.

Mr. MOORE. That is, the corporation headed by the Alien Property Custodian, which secured by purchase or otherwise from the prior Alien Property Custodian the German patents on the dyestuffs? Mr. IMBRIE. I think that is true.

Mr. MOORE. Do you know how the sale from the prior Alien Property Custodian to the corporation of which the Alien Property Custodian is president was effected?

Mr. IMBRIE. No, sir.

Mr. MOORE. As a business man, would you not prefer to see the business of the Government disassociated a little bit from private business, corporations, and enterprises formed for the purpose of issuing stock and making money?

Mr. IMBRIE. I do not think that is the purpose of the Chemical Foundation.

Mr. MOORE. It is a stock corporation, is it not?

Mr. IMBRIE. It is

the ordinary sense.

not formed for the purpose of making money in

I think I am correct in that.

Mr. COVINGTON. That is correct.

Mr. MOORE. It is capitalized or is being capitalized at $500,000. Mr. IMBRIE. Yes; but that does not make it an organization for the purpose of making money.

Mr. MOORE. Do gentlemen invest large sums of money in corporations purely for patriotic motives?

Mr. IMBRIE. I do not think anybody has been asked to invest money for patriotic motives. I think the subscriptions are limited. to a very small number of subscribers.

Mr. MOORE. Is it not suggested in the letter that was sent out by the Chemical Foundation that the entire trade would be given an opportunity to subscribe to that corporation with which the present Alien Property Custodian is connected, his influence being acquired by his ability, through the sale by the former Alien Property Custodian of these German patents, to control those patents?

Mr. IMBRIE. I do not understand your question.

Mr. MOORE. My question was as to the ethics of that proceeding. I want to know whether you, as a business man, think it a wise thing to encourage public officials to engage in an enterprise of this kind, disposing of property to a trade which is directly interested in the business of

Mr. IMBRIE. I believe when the purposes of the Chemical Foundation are explained, as I believe Mr. Choate can explain them, that your question can be satisfactorily answered.

Mr. MOORE. I am assuming that you know something about the Chemical Foundation. I believe the other gentlemen can explain it and will explain it, but may I ask whether you know, apart from the fact that the licensing system seems to have originated in Great Britain, that it has been suggested and recommended by the Secretary of the Interior?

Mr. IMBRIE. I do not know that.

Mr. MOORE. Do you know he recommended the adoption of a licensing system in regard to the disposition of potash?

Mr. IMBRIE. I did not know that.

Mr. MOORE. I think I can state that as a fact. Now, then, in view of the fact that Judge Green and Mr. Fordney both have asked some questions in regard to the propriety of the licensing system or the possibility of it, I want to ask if, as far as you have been conferred with by other gentlemen, in the trade or otherwise, members of the Chemical Foundation, or others engaged in the chemical or dye industry in the United States, there has been any suggestion that it

might be well to take out of the hands of Congress the power to legislate upon questions of this kind by throwing the whole business into a licensing board?

Mr. IMBRIE. I have not heard that stated. I believe the licensing system can be operated without necessarily conflicting with the collection of revenues, and I believe, from what I understand of the system, that it will be of advantage to the dyestuffs industry and other industries.

Mr. MOORE. Would you favor the continuance, in peace times, of the war boards that have been in existence during the war?

Mr. IMBRIE. That is a very large question. I think most of them are temporary measures that need not be continued.

Mr. MOORE. I assume if you were in control of one of those war boards, and had a chance to pass on your competitor's business, you might favor that system; but if you were an independent, and did not want to reveal your hand to your competitor, you would prefer not to have to submit your business to a licensing board which was made up of men who were doing business against you?

Mr. IMBRIE. I think the licensing system, if its success depends upon its being administered by a nonpartisan board, in which the industry would have confidence-I do not know how that can be worked out, but we are here to argue for a licensing system at this juncture.

Mr. MOORE. Since you have indicated your belief in a protectivetariff system-and I certainly think you are right about that-I ask whether, as a matter of principle and of practice, you would rather have Congress, which comes together every two years and to which Members are elected every two years, discuss these questions of rates as they arise, which they are obliged to consider under the Constitution of the United States, or have those questions taken entirely out of the hands of Congress and placed in the hands of the Tariff Commission or of the War Industries Board, or an excise or licensing board such as proposed here

Mr. IMBRIE. The question of rates does not enter into the question of the establishment of the licensing system.

Mr. MOORE. I think you will find that a little while ago Mr. Cheney rather indicated that a licensing system, fortified by the War Industries Board system, backed up by the interests of those who were concerned in imports and exports, would rather tend toward regulating prices in the United States so that only those approved by the board might do business. In other words, such a system might be carried to such an extent that Congress really would have no control of rates except merely to legislate and be laughed at by the War Industries Board or licensing boards which, having control of the business in hand, might dictate terms to all those engaged in it. Does your company hold any stock in the Chemical Foundation? Mr. IMBRIE. No, sir.

Mr. MOORE. Where are your headquarters?

Mr. IMBRIE. In New York City. Our mills are in Connecticut and Rhode Island, but the head offices are in New York.

Mr. MOORE. Your business is what?

Mr. IMBRIE. We are finishers of cotton piece goods; that is, bleachers, dyers, and printers of cloth. We are not makers of the cloth. We perform a service for the makers of the cloth.