Dr. LANE. They would come within the terms of section 305 of the act, most probably. That would require nothing more than a notarized quarterly statement of their receipts and expenditures for the purposes specified in the act, which are the influencing of legislation.

Senator UNDERWOOD. What I am trying to say is: Does every organization or group that has anybody come up here at all have to register at the present time?

Dr. LANE. NO. Under the terms of an exemption spelled out in section 308, for example, a person-and "person" in the act includes corporations, associations, and organizations-a person whose sole lobbying consists of committee appearances is exempt from any liability to report under the act. They might be covered by such an exemption.

Senator UNDERWOOD. Suppose, in addition to the committee appearances, they come up here and go around to our offices and talk to the Members from their own State?

Dr. LANE. The question is, then, as to whether or not under those circumstances they would be required to file reports?

Senator UNDERWOOD. Yes.

Dr. LANE. That remains an open question under the act.

Senator UNDERWOOD. That ought to be clearly defined, I think, because none of these people that I am talking about wants to violate any law at all.

Dr. LANE. That is right.

Senator UNDERWOOD. They are interested in a bill that will come up for consideration here, either an act of legislation or a regulation from one of the departments, such as you mentioned; they form an association; they get together with three or four men. They send them up here. The way it is now, with all this change in legislation, they might have to come up here three or four times during a year or three or four times during a session.

Dr. LANE. Whether or not they would be required to report under the law would hinge largely on how they and how the Justice Department interpreted this "principal purpose" provision of section 307.

Senator UNDERWOOD. Do you not think they ought to find some way to define that, so that they would know? I have had one or two of them ask me. I do not know what to tell them.

Dr. LANE. The answer that I would propose would be that wherever any doubt exists as to a person's or a practice's coming under the act, sound public policy should require full disclosure of the facts, so that if there is any question in their mind as to whether or not they are reached by the act, I should think the cautionary thing to do would be to file a report.

Senator UNDERWOOD. What does the act say now?-that if they do any lobbying at all, except for appearances before congressional committees, they have to file?

The CHAIRMAN. Perhaps Dr. Galloway could answer that for you, Senator, if you would care to have him do so.

Dr. GALLOWAY. Senator, the scope of the application of the lobbying law is defined in section 307 of title III of the Legislative Reorganization Act of 1946. In general, the act requires all persons to register whose principal paid activity is seeking to influence, directly or indi

rectly, the passage or defeat of legislation by the Congress of the United States.

Senator HUMPHREY. Is not "whose principal activity" the qualifying adjective there?

Dr. GALLOWAY. Yes, sir.

Senator HUMPHREY. I think what Senator Underwood has in mind is the example that many of us lately encountered, the recent beef order, a case that is hot right now.

Senator UNDERWOOD. Yes, the livestock group. They are not really lobbying until the act comes up. They would not spend $200.

Senator HUMPHREY. In other words, from your own home State, may be representatives of several counties where there is a good deal of beef feeding. These would be beef feeders, let us say-they may be members of the Farmers' Union, the Grange, or the Farm Bureau. However, their prime interest right now is not the Farm Union, Farm Bureau, or Grange; what they are interested in now is this recent price roll-back order. So, what I say to them frequently is: “I would like to get the full story from you. Why don't you get a group together, a good cross section of all the beef raisers, and send a committee down here so that we can sit down and talk to them?" Now, what happens? Does that committee have to register? The members of that committee pay their own expenses, most likely, while they are down here. They will stay in a hotel 3 days, and that is about all they will do.

Dr. GALLOWAY. The decision as to whether or not that particular activity of that group is the principal purpose of the group with reference to congressional legislation rests with the group itself, so that it is within their own discretion to determine whether or not any particular type of lobbying activity is their principal purpose. Since, however, no stigma attaches to registration under the lobbying law, and since it does not cost anything to register, the House and Senate legislative counsel have been advising such persons to be on the safe side and register under the lobbying law.

Senator UNDERWOOD. There is another thing that comes to my mind, and that is this: You take some associations I am familiar with in our State that get excited over legislation. They do not even come up here. They do not even send anybody up here for several days. They just flood the mails with a lot of stuff and have a lot of meetings down there.

Dr. LANE. The act itself is not limited as to place. That is, efforts to influence legislation are not in the act limited to efforts taking place in Washingtotn itself.

The CHAIRMAN. I believe those activities are exempt from the act. Senator UNDERWOOD. I think that we ought to be clear there.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that a group of citizens having a common interest could make their wishes known to Congress and try to influence Members of Congress for or against legislation. The purpose of this act is to get out these professional lobbyists, who hold themselves out as men able to influence Congress and influence legislation, and take a fee for it, just like a lawyer taking a case.

Senator UNDERWOOD. I think you would be able to enforce that aspect of it if you would clearly specify these exemptions at the other end.

85166-51-18

The CHAIRMAN. I made some remarks about it at the time this bill was up. I did not want to vote for a bill that would require a citizen or a group of citizens in my State to register when they come up here to talk to me about legislation.

Senator UNDERWOOD. The ordinary man does not want to register as a lobbyist. If a fellow is in business, the last thing in the world he wants to do is to be registered as a lobbyist.

Dr. GALLOWAY. Mr. Chairman, this discussion, I think, illustrates the need of clarifying the scope of the lobbying law.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I think so. I am not clear just how it should be clarified.

Dr. Lane, we wish to thank you for your presence. I agree that this title of the Reorganization Act should be studied and some amendments made to it. We are very happy to have your suggestions. Dr. LANE. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. The committee will stand in recess until tomorrow at 10 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12: 20 p. m., the committee adjourned, to reconvene on Thursday, June 14, 1951, at 10 a. m.)

ORGANIZATION AND OPERATION OF CONGRESS

THURSDAY, JUNE 14, 1951

UNITED STATES SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENTS,

Washington, D. C.

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10: 10 a. m., in room 357, Senate Office Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman), presiding.

Present: Senators McClellan (chairman), Monroney, Moody, and Dworshak.

Also present: Walter L. Reynolds, chief clerk, and George B. Galloway, consultant.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. Congressman Burdick, will you come forward, please, sir? Do you have a prepared statement, Congressman?

STATEMENT OF HON. USHER L. BURDICK, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NORTH DAKOTA

Mr. BURDICK. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Just proceed in your own way. The committee is glad to hear you and have your suggestions.

Mr. BURDICK. What I have to say is not directed to what I think about the Members of Congress, because I do not hold the view that they are crooked. What I have to say is said for the purpose of having the general public understand what we ourselves understand. There is a wide feeling throughout the United States, which I run into in traveling back and forth 2,000 miles across this country, that the people seem convinced that the Members of Congress are not honest. Every once in a while, when some Member of Congress is convicted of something, that increases their feeling that the whole situation down here is crooked, and destroys confidence in a great Government at a time when we need confidence. So last year I prepared a bill providing for the appointment of committees of Congress to investigate, but that did not suit the Rules Committee of the House. This year I prepared a straight bill which carries with it no committee to investigate, but requires each Member of Congress, within 15 days after the close of a session, to give a list of those who have worked for him, the amount of salaries they drew and whether or not he is taking any part of it directly or indirectly, swear to it and file it and make it available to the press of the country. I think that will remedy the whole business.

I am satisfied that the last Member of Congress who was convicted. did not intend to violate any law, but I think he did not know there

was such a law. I can show that pretty clearly by the fact that, after he took this money, he reported it in his report on campaign expenditures that he had received that money. That does not show very much of a criminal attitude, but he just did not know.

I know of no Member of Congress that I am suspicious of on the question of being honest. I think, as a class, the House and Senate are composed of Members who, as a general rule, can compare with any organization in the country as to honesty and integrity. The only purpose I have in this matter is to aid the public in coming to a different conclusion than they have today.

I am very much interested in it because, in the world situation we face today, it is not very good publicity to spread among other nations false impressions of the American Congress. They say, "Look at this Congressman and this general who has just been convicted and has landed in jail." It is a poor advertisement for a great democracy. I will be glad to answer questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a copy of your bill?

Mr. BURDICK. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mind filing it and having it made a part of the record?

Mr. BURDICK. Yes, I gave you the substance of it. I will be glad to answer any questions you may have.

(H. R. 451, the bill referred to above, is as follows:)

[H. R. 451, 82d Cong., 1st sess.]

A BILL Making it unlawful for any Member of the Congress of the United States of America to receive or accept any part of the salary, directly or indirectly, of any person employed by him in the discharge of his official duties whose compensation is paid by the United States, providing a penalty therefor, and for other purposes

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That it is hereby declared to be a felony for any Member of the Congress of the United States of America to accept or receive, directly or indirectly, any part of the salary or compensation of an employee whose compensation is paid by the United States, employed by him to carry on his official duties.

SEC. 2. Within ten days after the close of any session of Congress, every Member of that Congress shall file a written statement, under oath, with the Secretary of the Senate or Clerk of the House (to which body the Member belongs) giving the names of those employed by him during such past session, the salaries or compensation received, and what part of said salary or compensation the Member has accepted or received, directly or indirectly, for any purpose whatever. Such reports shall be open for public inspection.

PENALTY

Any Member who shall file a false statement as herein provided, or who accepts or retains any part of the salary of an employee, directly or indirectly employed by him in the discharge of his official duties, shall be guilty of a felony and shall be punished by a fine equal to twice the amount of the salary or compensation, unlawfully accepted or received, and shall be subject to removal from the Congress.

The CHAIRMAN. I am not quite certain, but I am of the opinion that the employees we employ and the salaries we pay them are public to anyone who cares to inquire.

Mr. BURDICK. I think you will find in the Senate that the information will not be given out to a reporter, but in the House they can get the information.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions? Dr. Galloway, do you have something in mind?