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Agriculture, they were all there and there was not a single dissenting voice. They all urged that this be done.

There is no padding in this request; it was carefully worked out and we had to satisfy the Budget before we came to the Congress with the Presidential letter.

The information derived from these forms will furnish the only complete record of the skills of our available manpower between the ages of 18 and 65 years. It is there; let us use it. The information is urgently required by the War Department, the Selective Service System and the War Manpower Commission, and it should be available at the earliest possible moment.

Senator HAYDEN. Well, can you do all of this processing of those questionnaires for $6,131,049?

Mr. McNUTT. It is our estimate that we can do it for that.
Senator MCCARRAN. For how much?

Mr. McNUTT. $6,131,049.

PROCESSING OF QUESTIONNAIRES

Senator BROOKS. By "processing," tell us what you are going to do. Mr. McNUTT. Our principal problem right now is to find skilled workers employed in nonessential occupations and to move them out of the nonessential into the essential occupations.

Senator MCKELLAR. Suppose they don't want to be pulled out?

USE OF INFORMATION IN QUESTIONNAIRES

Mr. McNUTT. If we find out they are there, we will do our best to get them into the proper places. It is an effort to get the right man in the right place at the right time.

Now, we are depending on his patriotism. At the moment this is not very effective. I think as this whole thing goes on, and it is going to go on, that the patriotic urge will be stronger.

Senator MCCARRAN. That applies mostly to those not yet in the military service, I take it?

Mr. McNUTT. Oh, yes. The list will be useful, likewise, to the Selective Service, in the event calls are made for special skills.

Mr. CORSON. May I cite two additional illustrations I think would be illustrative of what they are used for: One is the effort now to get seamen to go back to sea. With the rapidly expanding merchant marine, the need for seamen is very great. As a consequence, the only way we have to find seamen is to go to those questionnaires, to go through the files of these questionnaires in our local offices and find out who have had seafaring experience and endeavor to persuade them they are needed now to go to sea. That is one illustration.

Another at the moment is copper miners. We need copper miners desperately, and the only way to find out is through these questionnaires in the local office. These forms are now frequently found piled on chairs because we have not had enough personnel even to file them. Senator THOMAS. Gold miners will be available presently.

Senator MCKELLAR. Senator McCarran, have you any questions? Senator MCCARRAN. No; not now. There are some other phases, but I don't care to detain him at this time.

AMENDMENTS REQUESTED

Mr. McNUTT. I have set forth here what it would mean in terms of the act. The restoration of funds can be accomplished by, on page 15, line 25, striking out $10,117,680 and substituting $16,980,000. Senator MCKELLAR. There won't be any trouble about putting it back.

Mr. McNUTT. In the event the committee agrees to provide funds. for salary adjustments, it will be necessary to strike out the period on line 7 of page 16, substitute a colon, and add the following:

Provided, that, notwithstanding any other provision of law, moneys herein or heretofore appropriated for employment service activities or for the operation of the national system of public employment offices shall be available to pay the compensation of any person engaged in such employment service activities in accordance with the provisions of the Classification Act of 1923, as amended. Senator MCKELLAR. You have that in your statement; it is on

page 6.

READJUSTMENT OF SALARIES OF CERTAIN PERSONNEL OF EMPLOYMENT SERVICE

Senator MCCARRAN. One thing in your discussion, as I caught it as you went along, Governor, was very urgently opposed by the State representatives when they came before us at the time of the consideration of the prior appropriation bill.

Senator MCKELLAR. Last spring.

Mr. McNUTT. That is right.

Senator MCCARRAN. And their State organizations, as I recalland I am thinking back in my memory and will state it from memory-passed resolutions against it and they brought the resolutions before us; and the committee voted to sustain them in their resolutions. And I am just wondering whether or not they have been advised now of your proposed proposition?

Mr. McNUTT. May I answer that off the record?

(A discussion followed off the record.)

Senator MCCARRAN. What I have in mind is that at the time the original appropriation bill was up they had notice and they came before us and were heard. Now, they are not here when this is brought up and they have no notice of it at all. It does seem to me in all fairness they should be heard, and yet the time will not permit.

TEXT OF PROVISION INCLUDED IN LABOR-FEDERAL SECURITY APPROPRIATION ACT, 1943

Senator MCKELLAR. If you will allow me, I recall from my own State we had one of the best men in it before us; I have known him all his life, and after hearing them we put this in the law:

Provided further, That pending the return to State control after the war emergency of the Employment Service facilities, property, and personnel loaned by the States to the United States Employment Service, no portion of the sum herein appropriated shall be expended by any Federal agency for any salary, to any individual engaged in employment service duties in any position within any local or field or State office, which substantially exceeds the salary which would apply to such position and individual if the relevant State merit system applied and if State operation of such office had continued without interruption.

Now, that is the law as it is today, and that is what your amendment would defeat.

Mr. McNUTT. Yes, sir; and I was just saying that if you leave it that way it will hamstring this operation, but the enactment of the proposed amendment will enable the Employment Service to carry out its function as one of the principal operating arms of the Commission.

Senator MCKELLAR. I am looking at it from the standpoint of this Appropriations Committee, whether we ought to defeat that law without hearing the people who opposed it before. I am rather like Senator McCarran on that, that we ought to hear both sides.

Mr. McNUTT. Senator, there is no doubt in my mind that they knew everything which took place in the House Appropriations Committee.

Senator MCCARRAN. I don't know.

Mr. McNUTT. They maintain an office here; they have somebody here all the time.

Senator MCKELLAR. I don't know anything about it.

Mr. McNUTT. But I plead with you gentlemen, give us a chance to do this job, which gets more difficult every day and will continue to become more difficult every day as this war progresses.

REASON FOR AMENDMENT REQUESTED

Senator MCCARRAN. Now, is your sole reason for the change based on what you have stated, that the turn-over is destructive of the Service; is that your only reason?

Mr. McNUTT. That is my primary reason, that is from the standpoint of the Service. But there is also the sense of fairness to these employees. These people are suffering because of things that are beyond their control.

Senator MCKELLAR. Gentlemen, you see, we sit here day after day, and have been since last January, just for illustration, listening to the departments, and in some services of the Post Office Departmentwith which I am very very much attached, because I am chairman of the Post Office Committee and have been for many years, and have been on the committee for a quarter of a century-there are certain of their employees, quite a large number of them, that are by the accident of legislation having to suffer from a like inequality of salaries. Now, that is the only one I am acquainted with just at this moment, but I imagine in each department there are certain employees that are thus apparently discriminated against; and maybe they are discriminated against. But just after we had passed a law providing for salaries to be retained as they were on September 15

Senator BROOKS. But there was a provision to provide for gross inequities. This is a gross inequity.

Senator MCKELLAR. If this is a gross inequity, it would come within that law.

Mr. McNUTT. Yes.

Senator MCKELLAR. But unless it is such, we have all got to submit to inequities.

(A discussion followed off the record.)

Mr. McNUTT. But we are here faced with a practical matter. This is a very important operating arm of the War Manpower Commission, and it will become more important day by day. If the

situation is going to be such as to reduce our efficiency it is going to be reflected in the progress of the war effort.

ARGUMENT THAT TAKING OVER OF STATE EMPLOYMENT OFFICES WAS STEP TOWARD FEDERALIZATION

Senator MCCARRAN. Governor, there is one very forceful argument presented by the group that was here, and I want to repeat it as best I can from memory. It is a general argument, and that is that this is one more step toward federalization. And to get right down into it, federalization means of everything. Those States are going to be restrained more and more as we go along. It may be that this is an emergency of the hour, and these other matters should be overlooked; but they are basic. The objection is basic to the whole proposition. Mr. McNUTT. The objection may be basic, Senator, but it is not justified.

Senator MCCARRAN. I don't know; we are getting federalized pretty strong.

Senator BROOKS. How do you explain it is not justified? We certainly are federalizing in every detail.

Mr. McNUTT. There wasn't any question but that the Employment Service had to be handled in a direct-line operation. There could not be anything in between. The transfer to Federal opertion was made in order to get a job done as quickly and as well as possible.

Senator BROOKS Not to prolong it, because I think the Senator is right, but we are federalizing in this country We have had testimony here today there are going to be over 3,000,000 people in-migrate from one place to the other because of the necessity of the hour, and we are going to have 13,0000,000 federalized in this Employment Service You are going to have to get federalized more and more That is why I favor what you are stating It is essential to be federalized now

Mr. McNUTT It was clearly indicated that it had to be done in order to meet the emergency situation

Senator BROOKS. As I say.

Mr. McNUTT. I don't think the argument was justified that this was a step in that direction and that other steps would be taken. Senator MCCARRAN. Let me read you the statement; it is short, made by Mr. Williams before the committee of which I was chair

man:

So that the thing we are trying to do is this, that when we see a move in a direction that would tend to federalize these State unemployment compensation agencies, to try to do our dead level best to head it off, because we believe that if we let them get the camel's nose under the tent it won't be long before the whole hump will be under the tent.

Are you trying to get the hump under the tent?

Mr. McNUTT. No; I am not, Senator. I am just trying to get a job done now that must be done now, to expedite the war effort. Senator McCARRAN. I believe that.

Senator HAYDEN. Gentlemen, are there any further questions of the Governor or his organization? If not, we will call the next witness. Thank you very much.

Mr. McNUTT. Thank you very much.

THE JUDICIARY

SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF CLERKS, UNITED STATES COURTS

STATEMENTS OF H. P. CHANDLER, DIRECTOR, ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICE OF THE UNITED STATES COURTS, AND ELMORE WHITEHURST, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR

COMPENSATION OF TEMPORARY EMPLOYEES

Senator MCKELLAR. What have you here?

Mr. CHANDLER. What I have here, Senator, is just this: A request for a deficiency appropriation of $75,000 to provide for the compensation of temporary employees in the clerks' offices for the present fiscal year, who are made necessary by the very great increase in the number of condemnation proceedings which are brought in the courts

Salaries and expenses of clerks, United States courts, 1943

Salaries and expenses: For an additional amount for salaries and expenses of clerks, United States courts, fiscal year 1943, including the objects specified under this head in the Judiciary Appropriation Act, 1943 (56 Stat. 503) _ _

Personal services, field

1

$75,000

The additional appropriation requested is to provide for the extension of the appointments of temporary deputies and clerical assistants in clerks' offices for the remainder of the current fiscal year and the appointment of additional temporary assistants where urgently needed during this period.

Estimated additional requirements, fiscal year 1943-.

JUSTIFICATION

$75,000

The regular appropriation acts for the fiscal years 1942 and 1943 have carried an allotment of $41,200 for the employment of temporary personnel in clerks' offices in the various district courts. The increased volume of work in clerks' offices due to naturalization and condemnation proceedings made it necessary for the Administrative Office to apply for a supplemental appropriation of $25,000 for temporary personnel during 1942, which was approved February 21, 1942 (Public Law 463).

Condemnation and naturalization proceedings in the district courts are still increasing steadily and it has been necessary during the current fiscal year to authorize additional temporary appointments in approximately half of the district courts to enable clerks' offices to keep their work from falling in arrears. The obligation for temporary personnel as of September 3, 1942, was $43,034. As of that date 72 temporary appointees for emergency work covering periods from 30 days to 6 months were employed in clerks' offices in 34 districts. The amount necessary to continue these appointments to the end of the fiscal year is $51,374.

Requests for temporary assistance are still being received and it is requested that an additional amount of $75,000 be appropriated for the fiscal year 1943. This amount will make it possible to continue on the rolls the temporary employees now employed in 34 clerks' offices and provide sufficient funds for the appointment of 24 additional deputies or clerical assistants where it is anticipated they will shortly be needed. The amount requested will also provide $6,500 which is needed to cover military leave with pay granted under the provisions of Public Laws 202 and 517 (77th Cong.), to employees entering the military service. many instances it has not been possible to absorb the cost of accrued leave of employees entering the military service due to the fact that successors had to be appointed to keep the work current prior to the expiration of the accrued leave.

In

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