Mr. FORRESTAL. That is because, of course, our total production is very much less than the army, as you know.

PURPOSE OF THE APPROPRIATION IN BILL FOR NAVAL AIRCRAFT

Senator HAYDEN. I think that the purpose of this appropriation is to insure those who are now making aircraft, for current deliveries that there will be business for them in the future if they continue to expand their facilities.

Mr. FORRESTAL. That is part of the purpose, Senator; yes.

Senator OVERTON. In addition to that, it takes some time-you have to get parts and material.

Mr. FORRESTAL. It takes time not only to assemble planes but also to create the parts that go into them. In other words, this is to be carried into and geared into the whole over-all aviation production program. We must get set now for manufacturing any planes we want to manufacture later.

Senator MCCARRAN. You must be asking for funds in this bill for some time to come?

Mr. FORRESTAL. Yes.

Senator MCCARRAN. Because we have been appropriating money for the last two and one-half years.

Mr. FORRESTAL. That is correct.

QUESTION AS TO PRESENT OUTPUT OF PLANES

Senator MCCARRAN. What is your output now on this same type of planes that are contemplated in this bill?

Mr. FORRESTAL. Our production-I would like to have this off the record, if I might.

Senator MCCARRAN. Yes.

(A discussion followed.)

AMOUNT OF UNEXPENDED BALANCES

[See p. 4]

Senator OVERTON. What unexpended balances do you have on hand?

Mr. FORRESTAL. Unexpended balances?

Senator OVERTON. Yes.

Admiral ALLEN. We put a statement in the House hearings showing that.

Senator OVERTON. You understand what I am asking for.
Admiral ALLEN. I understand the question; yes, sir.

Senator OVERTON. Because I looked through the House hearings, and I did not get any information as to the unexpended balances. There is a statement showing the unobligated balances, but I am asking about the unexpended balances.

Admiral ALLEN. I think I had a cash statement, that was put into the House record, which shows that.

Senator OVERTON. Maybe I overlooked it.

Admiral ALLEN. It is in there. I had a cash statement and unexpended balances were shown.

Senator OVERTON. This shows-well, that shows $36,000,000,000, approximately, cash expenditures of $10,000,000,000. That would be a difference of about $26,000,000,000.

PRESENT YEARLY RATE OF EXPENDITURE

Senator OVERTON. At what rate are you actually spending the appropriations now?

Mr. FORRESTAL. We are going at the rate of about $20,000,000,000 per year. That is, for this fiscal year.

Senator OVERTON. So at that same rate you have about a year and a half ahead of you?

Mr. FORRESTAL. Yes.

Senator OVERTON. I assume though that that will be expended before a year and a half elapses, because of your accelerated rate of expenditures.

Mr. FORRESTAL. It will depend upon the productive capacity of the country.

Senator OVERTON. Is it a correct assumption that it is going faster than at the rate of $20,000,000,000?

Mr. FORRESTAL. I think so. It is going faster now. Next year when we run into this raw material question and this manpower problem, I do not know what the production will be.

Senator OVERTON. Do you think that there ought to be that much ahead?

Mr. FORRESTAL. I think that we have got to have that much ahead in order to make the fullest use of productive capacity in building planes, so that you can get the fullest use out of material and supplies. Senator MCKELLAR. Do you care to make a statement on the question of manpower?

Mr. FORRESTAL. I can make a statement on it.
Senator HAYDEN. I would like to ask about that.

AMOUNT OF UNOBLIGATED BALANCES

Senator OVERTON. I think before we go into that, Senator McCarran wanted to know what is the unobligated balances that you have. I think that that appears in the House hearings.

Admiral ALLEN. Yes; that is in the House hearings.

Senator MCKELLAR. You had better put it in this record. Senator OVERTON. If you will put it in this record in answer to that query, what is the unexpended and unobligated balances. (The statement referred to is as follows:)

SUPPLEMENTAL NATIONAL DEFENSE APPROPRIATION, 1943

Obligation statement, 1943

Available for obligation for fiscal year 1943, prior to H. R.

7672__

Made available in H. R. 7672 as it passed the House:

1943 appropriations

$17, 303, 234, 256

$5, 588, 568, 308

Ship authorization language_

9, 510, 000, 000

15, 098, 568, 308

Senator MCKELLAR. On this question of manpower, if I might address myself to that for just a moment, there is more and more talk about that every day, and there is a question as to whether a limit should be placed on the size of the Army.

NAVAL DEMAND FOR MANPOWER

Now, what will be the naval demand for manpower? Have you a million men yet?

Mr. FORRESTAL. We have about

in the Navy now.

officers and enlisted men in the Marine

In addition there are about

Corps and the Coast Guard.

Senator MCKELLAR. What do you anticipate as to the size of the Navy and personnel concerned?

Mr. FORRESTAL. By next June, approximately

mately

plus.

; ulti

Senator OVERTON. That is in combat forces; that has nothing to do with construction?

Mr. FORRESTAL. That is all military personnel.

SITUATION REGARDING NAVAL ENLISTMENTS

Senator MCCARRAN. Are your enlistments coming up to expectations?

Mr. FORRESTAL. They are fine.

Senator MCKELLAR. Are there any further questions?

BUREAU OF SUPPLIES AND ACCOUNTS

MESS ATTENDANTS

Senator OVERTON. I would like to ask about a few minor matters. I notice a provision on page 3 of the subcommittee print of the bill I have before me that enlisted men may be employed in such bachelor's quarters and as mess attendants as may be specifically designated by the Secretary of the Navy.

Is that not a new provision?

Admiral ALLEN. Yes, sir. We have had a limitation, Senator up to the time that this came through. You have restricted us to a

specific number, but it is necessary to have more. It is not the intent to put these in private quarters. On account of aviation bachelor officers' messes and

Senator OVERTON. Are those the same men that we call attendants?

RATING DESIGNATED AS MESS ATTENDANT

Admiral ALLEN. These are not enlisted men in the sense that you mean. They are enlisted in the mess attendants rating. We never detail what corresponds to a private in the Army to officers' quarters. We have a rating called mess attendants. These men enlist in the mess attendants branch. Aboard ship they attend mess in the officers' quarters and for the last 2 or 3 years you have had a restriction on the number of messmen ashore that could be detailed to private quarters of officers. For instance, at all of these bases in the Pacific, they are really land carriers.

WHEN MESS ATTENDANTS ARE USED

Senator OVERTON. They are used only where the ordinary labor is not available?

Admiral ALLEN. There is no labor available at many of these places. Midway has nothing.

Senator OVERTON. I understand that.

Mr. FORRESTAL. They are in the officers' messes.

Senator OVERTON. We will take a place say like New Orleans. Do they detail these men where there is plenty of labor to attend the officers' quarters and mess?

Admiral ALLEN. Only to bachelor officers' quarters, if there are bachelor aviation officers down there. The commandant of the district himself might have say two mess attendants detailed to him, but that would be the extent of it.

WORK OF MESS ATTENDANTS

Senator OVERTON. What sort of work do they do?

ADMIRAL ALLEN. They do work which is similar to that done by servants in a household; cook and serve and keep the quarters in proper condition.

Senator OVERTON. And they are enlisted for that purpose?

Admiral ALLEN. Yes. They are enlisted in the mess attendant's rating.

BATTLE STATION OF MESS ATTENDANTS

Senator OVERTON. They do not belong to the fighting arm? Admiral ALLEN. Well, in the ship's organization, they pass ammunition. The mess boys are always down in the ammunition supply. Senator OVERTON. About how many of them are there?

Admiral ALLEN. Everybody on ship, when the ship goes into battle, has a job. Every man on the ship has got something that he has to do.

NUMBER OF MESS ATTENDANTS ATTACHED TO CAPTAIN OF A SHIP

Senator OVERTON. How many attendants are attached to a captain of a ship, we will say?

Admiral ALLEN. Well, normally it depends on the size. On a small ship there would not be anybody specifically assigned as an attendant to the captain but starting from, say a cruiser type, there would be three-steward, cook, and messboy.

Senator OVERTON. They would be assigned to the captain's quarters and to his mess?

Admiral ALLEN. Yes, sir. That would run about on that proportion all of the way up to the rank of admiral.

Senator OVERTON. They keep his quarters clean and serve his food? Admiral ALLEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. FORRESTAL. I can assure you that there are not too many, sir, particularly when they are operating where they have to go.

Admiral ALLEN. The service on the ship is not easy. The galley is a long ways off. They have got to go up on the bridge, and so on. Senator MCKELLAR. What you do is to enlist a colored waiter in civil life and say, "You are going to do the same kind of work in the Navy"?

Admiral ALLEN. We do, Senator.

INCREASED PAY FOR AERIAL FLIGHTS TO OFFICERS ABOVE RANK OF CAPTAIN

Senator OVERTON. I notice in the bill an old friend of mine, that is, increased pay for aerial flights to officers, flag officers; officers above the rank of captain.

We have thrashed that out, I think, at every hearing pretty nearly.

FLIGHT SURGEONS' AND FLIGHT OFFICERS' INCREASED PAY

In the last regular appropriation bill of the Navy, we had that question up and it went to conference, and I thought it was satisfactorily adjusted. My recollection is that it was limited to 23; just what the Navy Department suggested at that time-no, I think that they suggested more than that and we limited it to 23.

PRESENT REQUIREMENT FOR CERTIFICATION THAT EXTRAORDINARY
HAZARDS WERE INCURRED IN AERIAL FLIGHTS

And there has to be a certificate in connection with that?
Admiral ALLEN. Yes; a certificate--

Senator OVERTON. From the Secretary of the Navy that there was a hazard attending their flying?

Admiral ALLEN. The officers have to certify. The officer has to certify that he was engaging in a hazardous flight.