INCREASE IN DUTIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE WORK OF DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

Mr. TARVER. Suppose you give us an explanation of these three items of increase, Mr. Jump.

Mr. JUMP. I would like to preface whatever we say on the specific items involved by the general statement, that in the Department of Agriculture we are dealing administratively, and this committee is dealing legislatively, with one of the largest, one of the most complex and one of the most intricate operating organizations in the world. I use those terms deliberately and I think advisedly. I do not wish to make an immoderate description of the Department and do not believe I am doing so. I have honestly endeavored to discover the existence of organizations comparable to the Department of Agriculture, from the standpoint of the administrative problems involved and I have not succeeded. Of course every man thinks his own problem is the most serious. But as you study these figures. I think we can all agree that we are dealing with a major administrative problem. The Department might be likened to a pyramid that is spread out here among these 22 bureaus. It gets smaller as it goes toward the top and finally you get up to where there is only a very small space at the top through which everything, in one form or another, flows, as the Secretary and his general departmental staff perform their functions.

INCREASE IN ADMINISTRATIVE WORK

During the last 3 years, I do not think I am exaggerating when I tell you that the people having in charge the general administration of the Department have just practically reached the breaking point. They get to a state where their nerves are twitching, where their blood pressure is up, and where it is impossible to take on any further burden.

Of course, a lot of that-in fact, most of it-has been due to these emergency activities. Wherever volume has come into the picture we have unhesitatingly used the emergency funds. But we have even had difficulty in that, because the A. A. A. has been very scrupulous about the use of A. A. A. funds for anything that could not be established to be a proper charge against their funds. We have cooperated with them in upholding that attitude. In a way, they were the trustees of the processing taxes. We have had right in the Department more than one tussle with the A. A. A. to try to get them to pay what we thought was a proper share of the overhead expense for A. A. A. funds. I think that remark calls upon me to say that at the present time the A. A. A. is paying and so are the other emergency funds-for the great flow of increased work, such as would be represented by items running up into the millions, of vouchers and checks, and all that sort of thing.

But the strain on the administrative force is one that cannot be compensated for in that way.

Mr. TARVER. Suppose, Mr. Jump, that the substitute for the A. A. A., if one is devised, does not cover such a tremendous scope as the original organization; would not that tend to make less necessary the increases that are referred to or listed under this item?

Mr. JUMP. No, sir; I anticipated that question. I thought that question would be raised, and I think you ought to raise it because it is a natural question. And that was what I was leading up to, Judge, that we have refrained from asking increases here for employees that are needed just to carry the extra load, caused by the increased flow of vouchers, accounts, personnel actions and so on. The emergency funds, including those of the A. A. A. can pay for the additional help needed for these. It is the more general type of increased administrative burden that cannot be handled in that way.

Our situation is such that, frankly, in the administration of the Department, and in the handling of its affairs under the present complicated governmental machinery, we are just keeping abreast of the tide from day to day. None of us is doing things except those that are absolutely essential to get the day's work done. The thing that is disturbing is that during the past several years there has been, of necessity, due to the current pressure, almost an entire cessation of what you might term improvement work in administration, and when we do not improve in administration when we are not able constantly to make constructive changes, in the nature of simplification, uniformity, and so on, in the way the things are handled, it has been my observation, over a long period of time, that we slip back. And that is what is happening in the Department of Agriculture, in the field of operation, and that is what we want to check.

We have had some exceedingly disappointing and disagreeable experiences; things have come to light in the detailed operating procedure used in the administration of the Department which show definitely the need for stronger, more effective, more intelligent, and more constructive administrative application than the present force is able to provide.

Mr. UMSTEAD. Mr. Jump, let me interrupt to ask this question. Regardless of the extent to which the Agricultural Adjustment Administration may hereafter be continued, whatever form may be devised, is it not true that by virtue of its operations up until this time, and also by virtue of the whole agricultural development of the past 3 years, a tremendous amount of additional work has been placed upon the Department of Agriculture from which it probably will never be relieved.

Mr. JUMP. That is saying in a concise way what I have been trying to say, expressing the exact thought that I was trying to get across, Mr. Umstead.

The whole situation has changed in the past 10 years. The Department has shed one skin and is moving in another. There is a regional consciousness and articulation with the Department on the part of the States; there is a getting together on the part of the States and the Department in each region for purposes of sound regional program, to find what will be the best thing to do for that region from the long range viewpoint in a way that we never thought would be possible 7 to 8 years ago.

That is coming about by the closest cooperation, under joint Federal and State leadership. In our relations with the States, we have been on a basis of very fine cooperation. All of this has brought about a considerable increased responsibility on the Department.

These small increases here, however, which total $32,160, are an attempt on our part to bolster up the situation and do some of the

things that are really urgently needed, from the standpoint of administrative operation.

Mr. UMSTEAD. For example, to illustrate the point that I undertook to make by my statement, the Soil Conservation Bureau, after having operated for 18 months or nearly 2 years, as an emergency organization under the Public Works Administration, or rather under the Interior Department, was transferred to the Department of Agriculture and established as a separate permanent bureau. Mr. JUMP. That is correct.

Mr. UMSTEAD. Of course, it carries in this proposed budget a large appropriation. It is work that is stretched out all over the United States. Will that not inevitably, over and above the estimate for its own bureau, add to the necessary work of your Department, the Department of Agriculture?

Mr. JUMP. It has already done so, Mr. Umstead, I do not believe that there is a single responsible official of the Department who since March 25, when the Erosion Service was transferred to the Department, has not been called upon to spend many hours, in some cases days and weeks, in assisting in articulating the policy and procedure and methods of operation of that Service, that fitted in all right under the old emergency administrative scheme, but had to be brought into harmony with the policy and operating procedure of the Department of Agriculture.

The best example of that would be Mr. Eisenhower here who, for a number of months, has been designated by the Secretary to advise with Mr. Bennett on all of these questions.

Mr. UMSTEAD. That has taken his time, of course, from his normal and regular duties in the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. JUMP. Yes; it certainly has; for weeks at a time. He has an office over there.

Mr. UMSTEAD. And therefore has been a strain upon the personnel force of the Agricultural Department.

Mr. JUMP. Yes; and has been a strain on him, also, because he has been down at the Soil Conservation Service day after day, and at his own office night after night trying to keep things moving there

ADDITIONAL PERSONNEL, OFFICE OF PERSONNEL

The first increase is $10,720 for additional assistants in the Office of Personnel, and Dr. Stockberger, the Director of Personnel of the Department, is here, and will explain that item.

Mr. TARVER. We shall be glad to hear you, Dr. Stockberger.

Dr. STOCKBERGER. Mr. Chairman, I should like to continue jus a little further the thought that has been developed before you in the last few minutes.

The Department has been growing very rapidly for a number o years. For example, I have some figures here which show that ou total personnel on the 30th of June 1931 was 28,163; on June 30 1935, it was 44,080. I have not the exact figure for the personne this morning, but it is in the neighborhood of 53,000.

Mr. TARVER. I notice in subparagraph (a) of page 2 of your justi fication statement, that the number of personnel is stated as ove 47,000. Has there been an increase from 44,000 since July 1, 1935

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Dr. STOCKBERGER. Yes; since that was written. Our force is now approximately 53,000.

Mr. TARVER. Does that include all of the employees of the A. A. A.? Dr. STOCKBERGER. Yes, sir; and the Soil Conservation Service. Mr. JUMP. It includes the regular employees of the A. A. A., but it does not include the several thousand committeemen who are paid for service off and on, a few days at a time.

Mr. TARVER. What proportion of this personnel consists of employees of the A. A. A.?

Mr. JUMP. Seven thousand would more than cover it.

Dr. STOCKBERGER. Yes; the total is not that large.

Mr. JUMP. It is between six and seven thousand.

Dr. STOCKBERGER. There are about 6,600 in the Three A's.

Mr. TARVER. As I read this detailed information in regard to the proposed increase, it does not include anything for increased salaries. Mr. JUMP. No, sir; there is no increase in the Budget estimates for the Department of Agriculture for increased salaries. I feel that we are fortunate to be in the place we are on the salary question in view of employment conditions in the country generally. Such salary increases as may become possible during 1937 will have to be made with existing funds.

Dr. STOCKBERGER. This is merely to provide additional assistance to handle or help handle this volume of work.

Mr. TARVER. How many new positions are provided for by this increase?

Mr. JUMP. Two under paragraph (a).

Dr. STOCKBERGER. And two under paragraph (b).

Mr. JUMP. Four altogether.

Dr. STOCKBERGER. Yes; four altogether.

Mr. JUMP. That is on that $10,000 item.

The second one there is for one more investigator. Last year, you remember, we told you conditions in the field service and to some extent in Washington, too, were such that we were finding it necessary, absolutely essential, to have a force of men go around and check these stations, inspect them, see what is going on, determine what kind of business practices were being followed, and what kind of relationships were being set up with the local communities, and so forth and so on. We said then that we just wanted to make a beginning on that, and we have. If you have the time to go into it, I should be glad to go into it in detail, or I can leave you a memorandum giving examples of some of the things that are developing out of these inspections; and they are, to some extent, disturbing, and indicate the need for Coser administrative supervision, better contact between the Washngton offices and the field stations, and more uniform operating procedure in the Department.

Mr. THURSTON. These new positions, are they under the civil ervice or not?

Mr. JUMP. Yes. So were the ones we had last year. At the time O asked that question last year I made a slight reservation, because thought that the present Secretary, and successive secretaries, ight desire to have one of the positions excepted from the civil ervice, as a confidential investigator, but as it has worked out they re all civil service.

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Dr. STOCKBERGER. Mr. Jump has pointed out the situation con cerning the general administration; it is true also with regard to th personnel administration. The volume of necessary transaction which have to be inspected and considered has for several years bee so great that, with the force we have, there is time to do little els than try to keep up with the daily flow of actions.

There are many different questions with regard to personnel wor which should have further study, for example, questions of organiza tions. If we had the men available, some of them should go into th field to make a study of the field organizations set up at our fiel stations, to determine whether the organization is as effective as might be; to see how the operations are being carried on, and what th situation is with regard to the personnel and the general question o management.

This slight increase recommended will not provide much, if any leeway for that. It will enable us to do a little toward gettin better information.

There is one respect in which the Department is distinctly behin the times and that is in the facilities for obtaining statistical informa tion concerning our personnel. A number of the newer Federa agencies have put their personnel records on punch cards, so that an particular item desired may be quickly turned out by feeding thes cards through a Hollerith machine. When we need information as t salaries, residence, age, and so forth, of our personnel, each individus record must be examined for the desired item-say, now, 53,00 records-which means that under present conditions and for the las several years it has been impossible to assemble detailed information with our present force.

INCREASE IN

PERSONNEL IN THE

DEPARTMENT OF

AGRICULTUR

Mr. TARVER. I am interested in your statement that since July there has been an increase of from 44,000 to approximately 53,00 in the number of your employees. I wonder if you can give us som explanation as to the necessity for that tremendous increase?

Dr. STOCKBERGER. Of course, much of that was brought about by bringing in a large number of employees under the Soil Conservation Service activity.

REDUCTION IN APPROPRIATION FOR ORDINARY ACTIVITIES

Mr. THURSTON. Mr. Chairman, through the press we have bee told that there would be drastic reductions in the budget for the nex fiscal year. I do not know just whom to interrogate in that respect but I hope that Mr. Jump will have the proper person inform us the Department of Agriculture is going to join in the program o reduction.

Mr. TARVER. I though that perhaps the Secretary might hav covered in his statement yesterday the general result of this proposed budget for the Department of Agriculture, as to whether or not decrease or an increase, and in what amount, is shown for the nex fiscal year.

Mr. THURSTON. We are informed generally that there are going t be very heavy reductions in the operating cost of Government for th next fiscal year. Being on this subcommittee, I, of course, would