These young Filipinos that you see here have every fine quality that any one of you would like to see in your own sons.

The Philippine Legislature has, for many years, both at the beginning and close of each session, passed a resolution in favor of immediate, absolute, and complete independence. In 100 speeches in 100 places, the Filipino leaders have made the same statement. As a publicity man here for the Philippines, I have many, many, many times broadcast the same statement from their speeches for them. That is what I am for immediate, absolute, and complete independence. I am for it, because I believe that they are ready for it,. and that they are entitled to it.

I want to be free myself, and I am willing for the other fellow also. to be free. I think that if the United States fails to give them their independence, it is we who will suffer in the estimation of the world instead of them. They have done everything that we set out for them to do previous to their grant of independence. The only people who have not lived up to the covenant we made, I regret to say, are the American people, and I hope we are about to do it now.

Senator VANDENBERG. You mean you are in favor of the King bill, Mr. Tavenner?

Mr. TAVENNER. I am in favor of a bill that will fix a definite date, and there are only two bills introduced in both houses of Congress that have fixed a definite date, the Sabath and Crail bills. They are very brief, and I would like to read those, to show you just what I would like to get if I could have my way.

In other words, I want the Philippines to be made free. In 1913, 1914, 1915, and 1916, we were holding hearings, just as we are now. The same arguments, practically, were made then that are being made now. If we do not give independence to the Philippines now, and we meet again in 15 years, we will hear the same arguments over and over again. Either we should give the Philippines their independence, or we should not, and if we are going to do so, let us go ahead and give it to them and fix the date, and not put any "ifs" and "ands" in there, because they will mean one thing to one man, and another thing to another man. To a man who is in favor of independence, it means one thing; to a man who is neutral, it means another; and it means still another thing to a man who is against independence. Let us state definitely the date on which we mean the Philippines to be free..

Senator VANDENBERG. I would like to know generally what bills. you are in favor of.

Mr. TAVENNER. First of all, the Sabath bill, which is very short, H. R. 5509. Second, I am for a bill introduced by Mr. Crail, of California, H. R. 5462. They are the only two bills that absolutely grant Philippine independence on a definite date. If either of these bills is passed, then all of us who want independence may safely walk out of here and go to sleep, and never think of it again, and on the day specified in these bills the Filipino people will be free. My attitude is that I do not want to take a chance on any technicality bobbing up later to delay or prevent independence.

Senator VANDENBERG. If they should all go out of here and go to. sleep, and then they got their independence some day, they would wake up with a bang, would not they?

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Mr. TAVENNER. I think they would wake up with bands playing, and with more love for the American people than they will ever have in any other way.

Senator VANDENBERG. You do not think they need any preparation for this thing at all? They can go to sleep on it?

Mr. TAVENNER. Senator, they have had preparation for 33 years. We told them in 1916 of our intention to withdraw from the Philippines and give them their independence when a stable government could be established.

Senator VANDENBERG. There is no argument about any of that, but I am trying to find out whether you think they require any further preparation whatever.

Mr. TAVENNER. Absolutely not.

Senator VANDENBERG. You think they could meet the 100 per cent American tariff to-morrow morning?

Mr. TAVENNER. Their industries would temporarily suffer, of course, but all through the morning session the only thing talked about was sugar. I am here to speak for the liberty of the Filipino people, irrespective of sugar or anything else.

Senator VANDENBERG. We went all through the liberty question in our last hearings, and there is no disagreement about liberty. Mr. TAVENNER. All right.

Senator VANDENBERG. What we are trying to find out is whether or not they are ready for liberty, or whether they have to have some preparation for it.

Mr. TAVENNER. I believe they are ready for it. This bill that I am for provides for the withdrawal of American sovereignty on July 4, 1933. If you pass that bill now, the Filipinos will get busy right away, they will have to, and seek ways by which they can make a living after that date. But if you let it go for any number of years, they will delay finding new markets. For they are going to send their sugar in here just as long as they can get a cent a pound more for it here than anywhere else, but if they have to get out and find a market, I have enough confidence in their enterprise and resourcefulness to believe that they will get out and find a way to continue to exist.

Senator VANDENBERG. That is the point. You said they could go to sleep just as soon as this bill was passed.

Mr. TAVENNER. You misunderstood me, Senator. We Americans who want to see independence could go to sleep, and we could be sure they would get independence. I do not mean the Filipinos. I am sorry you misunderstood me. The moment we pass this bill, they will get busy-in fact, they have already started to get busy. The leaders are going around through the Philippines, teaching their people the importance of economic development, so that they will be able to take care of themselves when they get independence.

This idea that only countries that have tariff-free access to American markets can survive, it seems to me, is ridiculous on the face of it. Figures were put in the last hearings of this committee which showed that the foreign trade of about 10 Central and South American countries, none of which, of course, have free tariff access to American markets, had increased from three to ten times more in percentage than the foreign trade of the Philippines, with free access to American

markets. To say that no country can survive unless it can send its goods here tariff-free, it seems to me, is untenable.

The Secretary of War says to the Filipinos: "Why don't you tell me what you are going to do? I want to know what your pro

gram is."

Here there are 8,000,000 men out of work to-day, and if he were to ask them, "How are you going to support your home and feed your children next year?", they could not answer. All they could say would be, "Lord only knows. I will do the best I can.

But I want to say to you that if the Philippines do suffer, they will never suffer as much as these 8,000,000 people out of work in this country are suffering. Why? The Philippines are a land of milk and honey. The Filipinos will have to buy no woolens. They will have to buy no coal to keep warm. They can build a house in a day, by calling in a few neighbors, and they will suffer nothing like the people of this country are suffering from the depression.

I would like to read this bill

Senator HAWES. May I ask you one or two questions?
Mr. TAVENNER. Yes, sir.

Senator HAWES. On the conclusion of our treaty with Spain, Spain was allowed 10 years to readjust herself.

Mr. TAVENNER. Yes, sir.

Senator HAWES. There was a limitation placed upon the products sent from the Philippines to the United States at one time, and that limitation was withdrawn, and free trade entered into, over protest of the Filipinos.

Mr. TAVENNER. Yes.

the

Senator HAWES. They opposed free trade with the United States. Mr. TAVENNER. Yes, sir; absolutely.

Senator HAWES. So that the condition that has grown up there in relation to sugar and other products, is the result of our own acts. Mr. TAVENNER. Absolutely. We forced that position upon them with military force.

Senator HAWES. Do you happen to be familiar with the limitation upon the sale of land, to 2,500 acres?

Mr. TAVENNER. Senator, I know there is such a law. I remember hearing Mr. Quezon argue for that. They wanted to give this land out in large tracts, and he said the experience of mankind was that a people were more quickly self-supporting, and it made for a better civilization, if those grants were made in small tracts, so that each farmer could own the land he lived on. I well remember that argument he made.

Senator HAWES. That is another limitation that our Congress put upon the sale of land.

Mr. TAVENNER. Yes.

Senator HAWES. That was done by us.

Mr. TAVENNER. Yes, sir; it was.

Senator HAWES. That is all I wanted to ask right now.

Mr. TAVENNER. I thought you were going to ask me whether I thought they should be allowed to send their products in here free. I was going to give you my view on that, anyway, because that is a question that is very much involved here.

As you say, we forced this condition upon the Philippines, and we are responsible for the tight place they are in now. If the United States wants to do the right thing by them, it would be all right for us to let their products come in here for such a period as you gentlemen think proper, but my attitude is let them come in after independence is granted, instead of before. Give them independence first. That is the thing my whole heart is set upon; sugar is secondary. I know the Filipinos will be able to take care of themselves. They are a resourceful people. They are not dead ones. If anyone thinks for a minute that the moment they get independence they are going to lay flat on their backs, stick up their legs, and give up the ghost, he is mistaken. They are a very alert people. Of course, some of them naturally may not want to give up some of these privileges, especially this sugar profit pap, before they actually have to.

My position is, give the Filipinos independence first, and in the same bill, or a separate bill, fix a period of five years, say, or more, during which you will make some concessions to them in sending their products into this country.

This bill I am for is H. R. 5509, introduced by Representative Sabath, of Chicago, to provide for the independence of the Philippine Islands on July 4, 1933.

Whereas the Philippine Legislature has repeatedly petitioned for "immediate, absolute, and complete" independence.

That is true. The records of the Philippine Legislature show it, and they have already testified to it many times.

Senator HAWES. If you were here this morning, you remember the discussion was being confined to another bill.

Mr. TAVENNER. Yes, I do-your bill.

Senator HAWES. The Hawes-Cutting bill.

Mr. TAVENNER. I am going to come right to that.

Senator HAWES. We were discussing the terms of that. I am just trying to save you some time.

Mr. TAVENNER. May I just put this in here, so that you will know what I am trying to get at?

Senator HAWES. Certainly.

Mr. TAVENNER (reading):

Whereas the Filipino people have succeeded in maintaining a stable government and have thus fulfilled the only condition laid down by the Congress as a prerequisite to the granting of independence; and

Whereas it therefore is now our liberty and our duty to keep our promise to these people by granting them immediately the independence which they so honorably covet: Therefore

I would like to explain that the Democratic Members of the Senate, at least, ought to have no difficulty in supporting these last two paragraphs, because they are the exact words from the last two Philippine planks of the Democratic platform. Those two paragraphs were written by Woodrow Wilson, and were used by him in a speech 'to a joint session of Congress, so it seems to me the Democrats ought to be able to swallow that part of this proposition. I would like to call your attention to the fact that it says here:

Whereas it therefore is now our liberty and our duty to keep our promise to these people by granting them immediately

Not 10 years from now, and not 5 years from now, but immediately.. We made that statement in the platform in 1924.

Senator HAWES. Mr. Tavenner, I think you should follow the wishes of the committee, and discuss the bill under consideration. Mr. TAVENNER. I am going to follow with that right away.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the sovereignty of the United States of America over the Philippine Islands shall be withdrawn and forever cease, and the full and complete independence of the people thereof recognized, on and after July 4, 1933.

That is what I am for.

Now, Senator, in connection with your bill, I want to say this. I sat up half the night reading this book of yours, "Philippine Uncertainty." It is one of the finest books on the Philippines ever written, and I agree with everything you say there in justification of the Philippines' desire to be free. I think that anyone who has read this book, and anyone who has in the last couple of years kept track of the many excellent things you have placed in the Congressional Record on behalf of Philippine independence, must be convinced that you are for Philippine independence with all your heart. For that reason, I am for you, with all my heart.

But, Senator, I can not be for your bill as much as I am for you, for the reason that it does not provide a definite date. I will tell you a remark of yours that I do agree with, and that is this: In your letter to the Committee on Insular Affairs of the House you say:

I am sure you will agree that a very great stimulus will be given to the people of the Philippines to push forward into new fields for greater opportunity and expansion in agriculture, manufacturing, and trade, but this stimulus can not come until a definite date for independence is set.

I agree with you absolutely, but I can not find any definite date in your bill, Senator. If you will only put that in there

Senator HAWES. It is five years.

Mr. TAVENNER. There is many a chance for a slip twixt cup and lip in this bill. If I thought there was a definite date, I would not have come here. I only want to have you put a definite date in it.

I am going to try to show you, in the most kindly way, of coursebecause you are one of my idols on this proposition; I have been reading your remarks, and listening to you over the radio, and agreeing with you in every way on everything. I believe that independence is more uncertain if Congress passes this bill than it would be if they do not pass any bill at all. I will tell you why.

If you pass the Sabath or Crail bills for Philippine independence, then we know exactly where we are and that the Philippines will be made free on a certain date. But if you pass this bill, and it goes through in the logical way, the next thing you will be confronted with will be ratification of a Philippine constitution.

The history of governments shows that there is nothing on earth that is so hard to get people to agree about as a constitution. It embraces every political issue on earth. For instance, if the Filipinos put prohibition in their constitution, the wets would try to take it out. If they left out prohibition, just as sure as it goes on the floor of the House and Senate, the prohibitionists will try to put it in, You will have to fight over every article of that constitution. If a single word of the constitution is changed, your definite date is shot to pieces.