In many, many areas I have come to learn that the Department of Interior through its Park Service provides many areas of recreation. Yet in certain other sections of the United States the Interior Department has no operations whatever.

I have reference to the Corps of Engineers and to the forestry department. In recent years they have, under the influence of public sentiment and Congress, begun to include the operations of the U.S. Forest Service in those areas that are not touched by Interior. And in those areas where the Corps of Engineers has jurisdiction, they have begun to include it.

So, without in any way reflecting on the Department of Interior it would be well to provide the committee with how much attention and effort is given in those areas to show that in this program you have here in almost all instances something similar to that which has been provided through the years in those sections where you have Interior Department operations.

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ASCS assistance for the establishment of outdoor recreation area enterprises on private farmlands, under authority of section 101 of the Food and Agriculture Act of 1962, serves the same public benefit purpose (providing opportunities to have needed outdoor recreation) as the recreation activities of other Federal agencies on public lands. Private farmers, ranchers, and rural residents control more than three-fourths of our land and water area. About 85 percent of our wildlife is produced on privately owned lands.

Public lands, especially the national forests, national parks, and most of the flood control and reclamation installations, provide limited developed recreation areas, ranging for individual States from none to several. Likewise, a growing number of small watershed projects developed by the Department of Agriculture provide resources of this type. These resources are very important. Public lands tend to be concentrated in areas not necessarily convenient to citizens in many of our population centers. Appropriate use of nearby farmlands through the cropland conversion programs under section 101 can provide outdoor opportunities for people distant from these publicly owned lands and reservoirs, which are similar in character to those enjoyed by people who have access to the Federal land recreation facilities.

Mr. GODFREY. Yes, sir, this is true. And there is one distinct difference. This is being carried out on privately owned land for production of income for the private individual to replace income that he has been getting from crops.

Mr. WHITTEN. On the other hand, for him to make anything out of it, it will have to be used by the people who are nonfarmers. To that extent it does provide a source of the same type of recreation that in the other instance you get from the Federal Government.

Mr. GODFREY. I would agree wholeheartedly with you that there are many areas in the country where the recreational facilities are not available even though the land is there.

Mr. WHITTEN. If you lend a man money to go into the recreational business, he will "lose his shirt," and your money, too, unless it is used by the people.

Mr. GODFREY. By the people. That is right.

Mr. WHITTEN. That is the point I am trying to make.

DEFENSE FOOD STOCKPILE ACTIVITIES

Mr. GODFREY. ASCS is involved in the proposed defense food stockpile to a considerable degree. This, of course, has not been authorized

by Congress as yet, but it has been presented in the President's budget as an item for which proposals will be submitted to the Congress. Legislation for this purpose is being drafted.

The total budget estimate for this program in 1964 is about 80 million. It is estimated that about $3 million of this would be used by ASCS if it is approved. It would be a wheat stockpile of approximately 5 million bushels, which it is estimated would provide about three-quarters of a pound, or about a thousand calories per person per day for about 30 days for 13.3 million people.

The feed grain stockpile would be estimated at about 611⁄2 million bushels, which would provide feed for approximately 1.6 million animals, 5 pounds each day for about 45 days.

AREA REDEVELOPMENT ACTIVITIES

The budget estimates for 1964 also include $90,000 from the Department of Commerce for ASCS to carry out area redevelopment activities.

Mr. WHITTEN. You are going from one thing to another. This is contingent upon Congress enacting a law?

Mr. GODFREY. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHITTEN. So it is not really before us?

Mr. GODFREY. I give it only for informational purposes.

Mr. WHITTEN. This one that you just described, is that in existence or is that in the same category?

Mr. GODFREY. This will come out of the Department of Commerce allocation for the Area Redevelopment Act. It will be given to us for that.

DEFENSE ACTIVITIES

One other activity that we are engaged in which is very important, and which I will cover briefly, is the carrying out of assigned defense responsibilities.

We have to service the State and county defense committees set up to carry out the Department responsibilities in connection with an emergency. The Department of Agriculture is assigned all responsibilities for the production and management of food in the case of an emergency. We have a departmentwide Defense Board and the Secretary has a special assistant working on defense. At county and State levels we have defense boards. These are personnel who are currently employed in other activities and this is just an additional activity that they are required to perform.

This involves the planning of what they would do in case of an emergency. It also provided for a survey which in many instances has already been completed, of processing facilities which are available locally in the area for food processing.

The budget as actually submitted includes an estimate of about $1,244,000 from the Office of Emergency Planning for ASCS to carry out their defense activities. As I said, these defense funds would provide for services to our State and county defense boards and provide training and instructions to these same boards, such as what they should do if we have an emergency; how they would go about assessing the effect of an attack; what we would do in obtaining the neces

sary things to carry on the production of food, such as fertilizer, farm equipment, feed, seed, manpower, and so forth.

This is a part of our ASCS activities as well as the other programs which I explained to you earlier.

LIVESTOCK FEED PROGRAM

One that Ross Pope reminded me of since I came in this afternoon, is the livestock feed program or disaster programs that we have. When areas are declared to be a disaster program, as a result of drought, or a freeze such as we had in the most southern parts, or flood, then under two public laws we have authority to make stocks of CCC grain available.

If the grain is being made available in a disaster area to foundation herds, we are permitted to sell it at 75 percent of the support price. If it is being made available to other than foundation herds, we are permitted to sell it in the disaster areas at 100 percent of the support price.

At the present time, for one reason or other, we have more than 500 counties designated as disaster counties. Before they can be designated a disaster county the Governor of the State makes a recommendation to the Secretary.

The local county committee, along with other agricultural agencies, makes a recommendation and shows the effects of the disaster to the State disaster committee. The State disaster committee then makes their recommendation to the Department.

This, along with the Governor's recommendation, is considered before the approval is given.

Mr. WHITTEN. Mr. Godfrey, back through the years we have had many problems in this area. It has always been my contention that to do what you are doing here is more sound, where you do charge for this feed, than some of the operations where it is provided free. Anything free everybody wants in on it.

If you keep the price from going sky high, you limit it to those who really have a need. One thing which has been a disturbance to me back through the years in the application of this program is your following, in some instances, county lines and in others, State lines. Drought or flood or freeze don't normally follow county lines. Is there any provision whereby you can judge this by areas of production, for instance, or percentage of damages? With the reporting services that you have you certainly could tell.

Mr. GODFREY. We have designated portions of counties. Authority is granted and before we consider one, they submit to us percentages of damage, and disaster committees can divide the county if they so like.

Mr. WHITTEN. During the war, most people didn't complain about not getting tires under rationing. They said they were willing to do without them. But they complained that So-and-So got them, when they didn't. That is usually the approach.

It comes back to the same thing, of folks with equal problems in the same general area. It is pretty hard to explain because one is one side of the line and the other on the other side, and some difference will be made.

I am glad that you have not only the authority but exercise it in proper cases.

Mr. GODFREY. We are exercising this. In addition, each farmer, before he can receive feed, has to file an application showing what he has on hand and showing that it would be a financial burden on him, unless he got the feed at a reduced cost. This has been working out very satisfactorily.

Sometimes it is difficult for us to determine the degree of financial hardship that would be on him, but the mere fact that you have a drought in the area would indicate that.

Mr. WHITTEN. Again for the record, you are limited to those things that you have in surplus?

Mr. GODFREY. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHITTEN. You do not spend cash to provide what he would like to have?

Mr. GODFREY. We are limited to what we have in surplus. We ship it into the area. In order not to mislead the committee, there is one provision where we may donate in extreme disaster for a short period of time sufficient feed to maintain the herds, when they are completely separated from the farm, so to speak.

Mr. WHITTEN. I recall several instances in the Rocky Mountain area where you had to drop feed by plane or helicopter?

Mr. GODFREY. Yes, sir. In Alabama, you may recall, 2 years ago this spring, they were flooded severely in the southern part of Alabama. We did donate some grain there until such time as the water receded to the level where a man could get his own livestock back and know what he had.

Mr. WHITTEN. You might have the pertinent provisions of the act incorporated in the law at this point to give us a ready reference. Mr. GODFREY. All right, sir.

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AGRICULTURAL ACT OF 1949

SEC. 407. The Commodity Credit Corporation may sell any farm commodity owned or controlled by it at any price not prohibited by this section. In determining sales policies for basic agricultural commodities or storable nonbasic commodities, the Corporation should give consideration to the establishing of such policies with respect to prices, terms, and conditions as it determines will not discourage or deter manufacturers, processors, and dealers from acquiring and carrying normal inventories of the commodity of the current crop. The Corporation shall not sell any basic agricultural commodity or storable nonbasic commodity at less than 5 per centum above the current support price for such commodity, plus reasonable carrying charges: Notwithstanding the foregoing, the Corporation, on such terms and conditions as the Secretary may deem in the public interest, shall make available any farm commodity or product thereof owned or controlled by it for use in relieving distress (1) in any area in the United States declared by the President to be an acute distress area because of unemployment or other economic cause if the President finds that such use will not displace or interfere with normal marketing of agricultural commodities and (2) in connection with any major disaster determined by the President to warrant assistance by the Federal Government under Public Law 875, Eighty-first Congress, as amended (42 U.S.C. 1855)1 and shall make feed owned or controlled by it available at any price not less than 75 per centum of the current support price for such feed (or a comparable price if there is no current support price) for assistance in the

1 See Pub. L. 86-299, 73 Stat. 574, approved September 21, 1959, (p. 218).

preservation and maintenance of foundation herds of cattle (including producing dairy cattle), sheep, and goats, and their offspring, in any area of the United States where, because of flood, drought, fire, hurricane, earthquake, storm, disease, insect infestation, or other catastrophe in such areas, the Secretary determines that an emergency exists which warrants such assistance, such feed to be made available only to persons who do not have, and are unable to obtain through normal channels of trade without undue financial hardship, sufficient feed for such livestock. Except on a reimbursable basis, the Corporation shall not bear any costs in connection with making such commodity available beyond the cost of the commodities to the Corporation in store and the handling and transportation costs in making delivery of the commodity to designated agencies at one or more central locations in each State.

FARMER COMMITTEE SYSTEM

Mr. GODFREY. The next thing I might mention briefly is the farmer committee system in the administration of the ASCS programs. I am prompted to do this for more than one reason. It so happens that last week, and we thought we were coming up last week, last week was the 30th anniversary of the first call to farmers to form a farm program.

Mr. WHITTEN. At that time, as I recall it, you were going to have the farm problem solved in 3 or 4 years?

Mr. GODFREY. Yes, sir; this was anticipated. It didn't work out exactly that way. I was prompted to mention it for that reason, and for another reason, that the committee system for administration of farm programs came in for quite a bit of discussion this past year, and I wanted to point out some of the highlights of what our committees actually do and how they go about administering the programs.

As the committee knows, they were authorized in the original Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1933. They were first used back then in cotton, cotton only. The following year, they were expanded and used in other commodities.

They have been serving a very very useful purpose, and in my opinion, based on being at the field level for many years, I don't think we could have administered farm programs under any other system. I don't think you could have administered farm programs such as we had with a paid employee calling all the shots, so to speak. Here you had farmers administering programs for the other farmers in the county.

They are doing quite a job in all fields, as we pointed out here yesterday afternoon and this afternoon. During the course of some investigations that were conducted last year, charges were leveled that our farmer committees were not properly administering farm programs. As a result of this, Secretary Freeman last June appointed a committee to look into the administration of programs by farmerelected committees.

This Committee was composed of several members of the National Agricultural Advisory Commission, along with two public administration officials, with the Chairman of the National Agricultural Advisory Commission serving in an ex officio capacity.

The Committee was chaired by Lars Nelson, who was master of the Washington State Grange. It had several important people on

The language appearing after (42 U.S.C. 1855) was added by the Act of August 7, 1961 (Pub. L. 87-127) 75 Stat. 203, 204.