Mr. COLE. Why did you dictate that letter?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Because I was double-crossed.

Mr. COLE. You were excited and angry and dictated it?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I was not angry, but I was hurt.

Mr. COLE. And after a while you cooled off and decided not to do it?

Mr. ROHLEDER. The next morning I tore it up.

Mr. COLE. I am curious to know, have you ever done any work for the Navy Department before?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. COLE. Do you know Commander Marshall down in the Navy Department?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. COLE. How did you get to know him?
Mr. ROHLEDER. At Lakehurst.

He was officer in charge.

Mr. COLE. Have you had any contact with him since Lakehurst, which was along in 1918, was it?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right. I have stopped at his house, I think, several times.

Mr. COLE. Where?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Here in Washington.

Mr. COLE. How recently? I mean after 1918 when did you see Commander Marshall?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Oh, I think about a year ago, maybe it was less than that.

Mr. COLE. Along about the time that the Cramp job came along? Mr. ROHLEDER. I had worked at the North Carolina Pulp Co., at Plymouth, N. C., and I stopped through Washington a couple of times. Mr. COLE. Has he ever been around any of your jobs in the last 10 years?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. COLE. Has he had any reports on your jobs as far as you know? Mr. ROHLEDER. Not that I know of.

Mr. COLE. What do you suppose was the basis of Commander Marshall's recommending you to Weyerbacher? He had never seen your job or known what kind of work you were doing and had only seen you a few months before this job was let. What was the basis for recommending you?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I presume through our connection out at Lakehurst. Mr. COLE. Which happened 25 years ago?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I wouldn't say 25.

Mr. COLE. Twenty-three.

Mr. ROHLEDER. About that.

Mr. TOLAND. What was the phone conversation with Anderson that you referred to in this letter?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That was with reference to the finishing of the plumbing and heating over there as soon as this building was completed.

Mr. TOLAND. He never lost a contract with Cramp, did he? Every time your friend Anderson bid he was the successful plumbing contractor; isn't that right?

What other plumber worked at

Mr. ROHLEDER. I think so. I don't know.
Mr. TOLAND. You ought to know.
Cramp under your general contractor?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't think anybody did.

Mr. TOLAND. Right. He got $308,000 worth of contracts, didn't he? And every time he bid he was the successful bidder. Isn't that right? Mr. ROHLEDER. I think it must be so.

Mr. TOLAND. Well, you know. What other plumber ever worked there?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't recall any.

Mr. TOLAND. Along the lines of Mr. Cole's questions, why did you decide not to mail it?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Because it wasn't right to mail it.

Mr. TOLAND. And it was wrong to dictate it?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Very much wrong to dictate it.

Mr. MAAS. Mr. Chairman, I have to leave. May I ask the witness a question? Mr. Rohleder, what was the basis upon which you made the estimates for Commander Weyerbacher in the original instance of the rehabilitation of the buildings in the yard?

Mr. ROHLEDER. What was the basis?

Mr. MAAS. Yes; what was your arrangement with Commander Weyerbacher?

Mr. ROHLEDER. There was no arrangement.

Mr. MAAS. You had some arrangement or you couldn't have gone out there and done it. I mean, you didn't do it on your own initiative, did you? You said you did it for Commander Weyerbacher. What was the arrangement under which you did it for him?

Mr. ROHLEDER. You mean preparing the estimates?

Mr. MAAS. Yes. Did he ask you to do it or did you ask him to let you do it?

Mr. ROHLEDER. He asked me if I would help him prepare estimates on repairs to those buildings.

Mr. MAAS. Did he get in touch with you for that specific purpose? Mr. ROHLEDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. MAAS. After the 25 years since he had seen you?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right.

Mr. MAAS. What was to be the consideration that you were to get out of making these estimates?

Mr. ROHLEDER. None, sir.

Mr. MAAS. Are you in the habit of doing business for nothing for virtual strangers? What did you expect to get out of it?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I hoped that my efforts there would succeed in getting some work for me.

Mr. MAAS. In what way?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Well, I don't know just what you mean.

Mr. MAAS. How did you expect to get the work? Did you expect to bid on it like anybody else, or did you expect to get special consideration for the fact that you had donated your services? You expected something.

Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't know that you can expect any special consideration.

Mr. MAAS. Under what basis could you justify or did you justify giving up a month of your time and the pay of an employee if you didn't expect something to come of it?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I had hopes I would be given consideration for the work.

Mr. MAAS. Wouldn't you have been given consideration for the work whether you had done it or not?

Mr. ROHI EDER. No, sir; not necessarily.

Mr. MAAS. Did you expect to get it without anybody else getting any consideration?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No.

Mr. MAAS. They didn't do the work. Why do you think it would be different with you? Why do you think somebody else would get the consideration in addition to you who didn't prepare any estimates on it if you didn't prepare the estimates?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Understand, I am a small contractor in comparison with some of the rest. Some of the big contractors could have stepped in there on their name and got that work without any service.

Mr. MAAS. Didn't you understand that the work would be done by bid?

Mr. ROHLEDER. It was never discussed.

Mr. MAAS. You had no idea how this work was going to be let or how it was going to be handled if the yard was opened?

Mr. ROHLEDER. We were starting out; the first time we started work on that it was to be opened on a commercial basis.

Mr. MAAS. That didn't alter the stituation as to how the work was going to be handled in rehabilitating the yard. The general practice is by competitive bid. Did you understand it was going to be a competitive bid or that it was going to be a negotiated contract? Mr. ROHLEDER. We discussed that at one time and I suggested that the work be done on a guaranteed-cost basis, whereby any savings over and above the actual cost and a fee that would be established would be returned to the owner.

Mr. MAAS. And it is naturally assumed that you proposed or intimated that you would like to do the work on that basis.

Mr. ROHLEDER. Oh, certainly.

Mr. MAAS. Then you did expect something out of it. You had hoped to get the contract to rehabilitate this yard for your month's time. Mr. ROHLEDER. Naturally, anyone who goes in and does that kind of service has hopes.

Mr. MAAS. You must have had some kind of understanding that other factors being favorable you would in fact get the job, and the fact is you did get the job.

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right.

Mr. MAAS. You have been telling us right along that there was no consideration, just out of the goodness of your heart you went out for Commander Weyerbacher, whom you had seen 25 years ago, and made some estimates and got nothing for it and never expected to.

Mr. ROHLEDER. Well, I didn't say I never expected to. I had hopes. Mr. MAAS. You said there was no consideration involved, implied or otherwise. Now, you have just admitted there was an implied consideration, that you would be given consideration on a cost-plus basis. You did not expect to have to bid on that job, and you didn't bid on it. Mr. ROHLEDER. Well, that was so far away at that time, as far as starting, that was never really discussed. He asked me the type of

contract that would be considered on that, and I suggested a guaranteed-cost contract.

Mr. MAAS. You can't make me believe that you agreed to make the estimates and spent 30 days of your time or more without having discussed what was going to happen. That just isn't natural, and I don't think that you want to try to make that statement to this committee. You certainly discussed it.

Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't think so; no, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. May I interrupt, Mr. Maas? Didn't you tell Mr. Beal that you had an understanding with Commander Weyerbacher that he would give you every consideration in regard to the contract?

Mr. ROHLEDER. You mean back in 1938?

Mr. TOLAND. No, no, no! At any time, whether it was in 1939 or in October 1940 before the contract was ever awarded to you, didn't you tell Mr. Beal when he interviewed you that there was

Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't remember.

Mr. TOLAND. That there was an understanding with Commander Weyerbacher, if the plant reopened, that you would be given every consideration?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Well, consideration and contract are two different things.

Mr. MAAS. They didn't turn out to be different in this case. You got the contract. Isn't it a fact that when you made your original negotiations of any nature, whatever your understanding with Commander Weyerbacher was, that you would get the work, that you didn't expect to have to bid on it, and when it was discovered that bids had to be submitted; that that was a requirement of the banks or the Cramp Co. or the Navy in backing the banks; that then the bids were supplied to comply with the requirement, but from the very beginning you expected to get that work, and expected to get it, on a negotiated basis?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right.

Mr. MAAS. Well, That is what we have been trying to find out; that you did have an understanding then.

Mr. ROHLEDER. Well, not exactly.

Mr. MAAS. And the reason that you were out at the plant before a contract was let was that you had the understanding that you were going to get the work, and you had already moved in and started the work.

Mr. ROHLEDER. I had the understanding that I was going to get the four-story office-building contract only, Congressman, when we moved in there.

Mr. MAAS. Whatever it was that you were going to get when you started your work out there was with the understanding that you were going to get that job.

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right.

Mr. MAAS. And the bids came along subsequently simply to comply with the requirement that you didn't even know was going to have to be made.

Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't know whether they had the bids then or got them afterward.

Mr. MAAS. But they got them afterward. You certainly became aware of it somewhere along these proceedings.

Mr. TOLAND. They didn't get any.

Mr. MAAS. You became aware that bids had to be obtained in order to justify your getting the contract.

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir; no, sir.

Mr. MAAS. Do you mean to tell this committee that you never knew that these additional bids were obtained in connection with your original contract?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir; I did not, sir.'

Mr. MAAS. You never knew until it became disclosed by these pro ceedings?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir; I have no knowledge of it.

Mr. TOLAND. As a matter of fact, Mr. Maas, the bids were never obtained, but they were put on a quotation approval sheet as if they had been obtained subsequently.

Mr. MAAS. And the witness testifies that he never even knew that happened?

Mr. TOLAND. Right.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Maybe, as Dickens would put it, he had great expectations.

Mr. TOLAND. I have just a few more questions. Isn't it a fact that in connection with the contract which was negotiated for the I. P. Morris shop, wasn't that negotiated with you by Commander Weyerbacher without any bid opening with the supervisor of shipbuilding present, and that there were two other bids, both of which were received in open letters? Isn't that a fact?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Wait a minute, I don't understand that. Will you repeat that, please?

Mr. TOLAND. I would like to offer in evidence a report of the Cramp company's former president, Mr. Reed.

(The report referred to was received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 290.")

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Will you read it, Mr. Toland? This is different from the memorandum of Mr. Reed which was previously offered?

Mr. TOLAND. Right. This concerns purchase order 215, dated May 19, 1941:

From: James Reed.

Subject: Confidential.

Captain Hanson advises that a job involving the work on buildings 9, 10, 19, 20, 25, and the I. P. Morris shop Nos. 38 and 39, amounting to $181,000, plus $6,000 in fees, was negotiated by the general manager with Charles F. Rohleder without any bid opening with the supervisor of shipbuilding present, and that there were only two other bids, both of which were received in open letters.

The supervisor of shipbuilding insists that the above were only presented to him subsequently upon his request. He states that this is a very definite viola. tion of instructions from the supervisor of ships, as well as from the Navy Department.

Do you recall that contract that you got?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I imagine that is the one that he was talking about

here a while ago.

Mr. TOLAND. No. 215?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Yes.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you get the two letters from your friends, MurphyQuigley and Stewart?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir; I did not.