Mr. ROHLEDER. They were my employees, and the entire overhead was supposed to be charged to that job.

Mr. TOLAND. Yes; but that came out of the lump sum that was agreed upon, or the cost-plus-fixed-fee agreement that you made. Mr. ROHLEDER. The cost-plus-yes, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. You say that you checked, after September 10, all the bids? You had your employees check?

Mr. ROHLEDER. They were all checking them.

Mr. TOLAND. You don't want this committee, do you, to believe that there weren't any phony bids submitted after September 10, 1941? Mr. ROHLEDER. None that we knew of.

Mr. TOLAND. Take a look at this one. Does that look all right to you?

Mr. ROHLEDER (examining paper). I don't see anything wrong with

that, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. You don't see anything wrong with that?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. I offer that in evidence.

(Exhibit previously marked "Committee Exhibit 195-00" was received in evidence.)

Mr. TOLAND (to assisting counsel). Give me all the others that are in evidence.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What are those, Mr. Toland?

Mr. TOLAND. I would like the record to refer to these exhibits. Commander Weyerbacher testified that after that time, great diligence was exercised with regard to bids, and here are phony bids dated August 15, September 27, August 29, August 22, August 19, August 27, and August 20. These are already in evidence.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. From whom were those bids, Mr. Toland, for the information of the committee?

Mr. TOLAND. These bids were all submitted and approved by the supervisor of ships, submitted to him by the Cramp Shipbuilding Co., initialed in some instances by the person authorized. Who is the individual represented by those initials?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't know; I never saw that.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. From whom do they purport to come, I mean?

Mr. TOLAND. They came from the purchasing department of the Cramp Shipbuilding Co. to the supervisor of ships for approval. Here is one bid of

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (interposing). I mean whose bids were they?

Mr. TOLAND. One of them was Rohleder himself for $64,000, containing the bids of Stewart and Murphy-Quigley, and then there are other companies involved.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. You mean they are bids from companies who later denied that they submitted them?

Mr. TOLAND. No, no; they are bids that were submitted to the company on which there was testimony on the first day of this hearing by companies and officials connected with some of the companies. Then with regard to the contract that the witness got, there is the bid of Murphy-Quigley and Stewart & Co., and of course we offered the letter of the witness which he didn't mail. But they are all in sup

port of the testimony of the first day that the bids are not proper and that they were either complementary or forged.

I show you what purports to be a copy of your contract, unsigned, for the reconditioning of the four-story office building, nine-story office building, and replacing the roof of the fabricating shop, and ask you if that is a copy of the contract that was awarded?

Mr. ROHLEDER. This appears to be a copy; I can't be sure. It has been copied from the original.

(The copy of the contract referred to was received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 286," and is filed with the committee.)

Mr. TOLAND. Do you have a copy of your contract with you?
Mr. ROHLEDER. No, I have not, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. What papers did you bring with you?

Mr. ROHLEDER. The only one I have is an estimate submitted here in evidence the other day, the [Purchase Order] 215 contract.

Mr. TOLAND. On what?

Mr. ROHLEDER. On the 215 contract.

Mr. TOLAND. What did you receive in connection with that?

Mr. ROHLEDER. The other day there was evidence put in here that I was given a contract for $190,000 when some other contractor submitted an estimate, I believe, for $104,000.

Mr. TOLAND. What is your explanation for that?

Mr. ROHLEDER. The only explanation for that is that this $190,000 is the budget set up by Cramp's after all these bids were received. My comparable bid on that $104,

Mr. TOLAND (interposing). Wait a minute. Is it your testimony that the estimate was set up by the company after the bids were received?

Mr. ROHLEDER. These budget estimates, the amounts are generally set up afterward, yes, sir, because the scope of the work is either increased or decreased.

Mr. TOLAND. Isn't it a fact that that was before you bid and that you were the only bidder that knew the estimate of the company as to the amount of the contract was $190,000?

Mr. ROHLEDER. There is no one knew that amount until some time after all these bids were in.

Mr. TOLAND. No one?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. You were not informed or advised of the estimate that the job would cost approximately $190,000?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir, no, sir, because

Mr. TOLAND (interposing). Did you talk with Rust or Dustin about their estimates?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. Wasn't your estimate the same as the company's?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. Didn't you estimate the job would be $190,000?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. What did you estimate the job would be?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I think our estimate was considerably more.

Mr. TOLAND. How much?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't remember.

Mr. TOLAND. That is purchase order 215, isn't it?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right.

Mr. TOLAND. And those exhibits are all in evidence. That was for the rehabilitation of buildings 6, 3, 4, 17, 18, 19, 54, 27, 38, 39, and 20. Is that right?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right, but the estimate was first based on only 6, 3, 7, 17, 18, 19, and 54.

Mr. TOLAND. The bids submitted by all of the other contractors as to the estimated cost were less than yours. Isn't that a fact? Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. Who bid higher than you?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't know. I don't know what the other bids

were.

Mr. TOLAND. Why did you say "No, sir," then? Isn't it a fact that Irwin & Leighton, the company you worked for, estimated that job at $143,000?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I couldn't say, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you prepare that statement on the stationery of Irwin & Leighton?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you cause it to be prepared?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Absolutely not.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you call anybody at Irwin & Leighton?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Absolutely not.

Mr. TOLAND. You never called anybody and asked anybody for complementary bids?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir; I never did.

Mr. TOLAND. You never asked anybody at the company to do that? Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. If you had, would you admit it?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I would, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. And the testimony of people that have been here and testified under oath that your office had called for complementary bids

Mr. ROHLEDER (interposing). I don't think anyone ever called for complementary bids. I don't see any advantage in it.

Mr. TOLAND. I didn't ask you that. Didn't you tell Mr. Minor when he talked with you that you knew about these phony bids and that you told Weyerbacher about them?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. You never made that statement to Mr. Beal and Mr. Minor?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir; that was just a misunderstanding somewhere.

Mr. TOLAND. So that when Mr. Beal in his report to the company makes the statement that you told him, then Mr. Beal is telling a falsehood?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is not a truth, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. It is not a truth?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir; I never knew a thing about this until the time I was called down to Commander Weyerbacher's office and showed a bid that happened to be a carbon copy of another bid. When he

handed it to me I couldn't even understand it then. I didn't even know what it was all about.

Mr. TOLAND. What did he say to you?

Mr. ROHLEDER. He just showed it to me and said, "What do you think of that?" I looked it over, and I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "Well, that is a phony bid." He showed me why. After you looked at it awhile you could see it.

Mr. TOLAND. That is all that was said?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is all.

Mr. TOLAND. Didn't the bids come in from your subcontractors through your office?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. To whom in your organization did you delegate the authority to pass upon the correctness and the honesty of the bids? Mr. ROHLEDER. Rainey for the electrical work, Baldridge for the subcontract work, and Ward for the miscellaneous purchases.

Mr. TOLAND. During the period of the time that you were there, how many times would you say that you looked at the bids submitted on subcontracts?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Well, after I was called into the commander's office we all looked at them.

Mr. TOLAND. Even after that?

Mr. ROHLEDER. After that time; yes, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. Do you remember when that was?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No; I wouldn't know just what time it was.

Mr. TOLAND. You don't remember?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't know whether that was before Mr. Burns was there or while he was there.

Mr. FLAHERTY. Mr. Toland, may I ask a question? Was Rainey working for you or was he subcontracting?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Rainey was a subcontractor, and he was also working for me.

Mr. TOLAND. He was also a supplier of material, too, wasn't he?
Mr. ROHLEDER. For the benefit of Cramp Shipbuilding Co.
Mr. TOLAND. I didn't ask you that, Mr. Rohleder.

Mr. FLAHERTY. What advantage was there to your or Cramp's changing the relationship from employee to subcontractor or vice versa?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Well, Rainey wanted to do all that work to start out with on a fee basis, and when the work started out he obtained subcontracts for the lighting in the various buildings. When it came along to this electrification contract we didn't solicit that. We were asked by Mr. Weyerbacher to take that over in order to save Cramp Shipbuilding Co. a lot of money, for the reason that our estimate on that first amount of work that was shown on that first drawing was $31,000. The best bid he got in from his other six electrical contractors, I understand, was $41,000. I didn't see this; it is only what the commander told me. He asked me if we would take over the electrification contract. I took Rainey with me so that we could save them money. Mr. FLAHERTY. That was a move for economical reasons?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right, and on that first work where Rainey gets $31,000, it was completed for about $26,000.

Mr. TOLAND. Estimated $31,000 and was completed at $26,000?
Mr. ROHLEDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. Why is it you didn't tell poor Mr. Rainey that he was an employee of Cramp's until the day he testified?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Well, he should have known that.

Mr. TOLAND. Oh! How would he have known that if you hadn't told him? Weren't you holding out on Rainey?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Holding out, sir?

Mr. TOLAND. Yes.

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir; I haven't held out on anybody.

Mr. TOLAND. Had you been truthful and frank with Mr. Rainey when you made the deal with him and agreed to pay him $5,000?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I agreed to pay him $125 a week, which Weyerbacher permitted to be set up on there, to supervise that work, and $1,500 out of my fee.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you ever pay him the $1,500 out of
Mr. ROHLEDER. Not yet, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. When are you going to pay him that?
Mr. ROHLEDER. As soon as I get my money.

Mr. TOLAND. You haven't got all of your money?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

your fee?

Mr. TOLAND. What part of your money have you got?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Part of my fee is to come yet.

Mr. TOLAND. How much have you got? You ought to know. How much have you received-50 percent, 75 percent?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I would say somewhere around 75 percent.

Mr. TOLAND. As a matter of fact, the total number of contracts that Mr. Weyerbacher gave you with the Cramp Shipbuilding Co. was, on cost-plus-fixed-fees, $1,832,233, and your fees on that were $61,593. Isn't that right? That is on the cost-plus-fixed-fee contracts.

Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't think you have them all, Mr. Toland. Mr. TOLAND. Wait a moment. I am talking about cost-plus-fixedfees.

Mr. ROHLEDER. Yes, I know.

Mr. FLAHERTY. What was the total amount of the contracts?

Mr. TOLAND. The total amount of contracts, cost-plus-fixed-fees, was $1,832,233, with fees of $61,000; lump sum contracts were $472,393.13. Is that right?

Mr. ROHLEDER. The lump sum contract, that is right, but the fee contract was $1,935,222.

Mr. TOLAND. What were the total fees awarded in that?

Mr. ROHLEDER. $63,003, of which $1,500 is Rainey's.

Mr. TOLAND. So that the total amount of contracts that you received, both cost-plus-fixed-fee and lump sum or firm bid, was what? Mr. ROHLEDER. Well, including the extra work that was done without any fee

Mr. TOLAND. I didn't ask that.

Mr. ROHLEDER. I know, but that is the way I have it totaled up here. Mr. TOLAND. Just answer my questions and we will get along fine. You can make any explanation afterward, but answer the question. Respond to the question that I ask you. What was the total amount of all the contracts that you received, both cost-plus-fixed-fee and firm bid?