Mr. KATOR. No one is equal. They are all different in terms of what they bring to the particular job, and some people bring more and some people bring less. But this difference occurs among Anglos as well.

Mr. WALDIE. Then why do you use any statistics at all identifying Spanish-surnamed if in your view there is no difference between them and the rest of the population of this country?

Mr. KATOR. I didn't say there were no differences.

Mr. WALDIE. Are there differences?

Mr. KATOR. Yes.

Mr. WALDIE. Are there differences to the disadvantaged in terms of opportunity?

Mr. KATOR. Yes.

Mr. WALDIE. They are then disadvantaged in terms of opportunities for employment?

Regardless of the reasons is that a fair statement?

Mr. KATOR. Regardless of the reasons I would certainly agree that black Americans and Mexican-Americans have certain disadvantages in terms of employment across the board.

Mr. WALDIE. So we are attempting to overcome those disadvantages by employing them?

Mr. KATOR. Yes, we are trying to do more, I think.

Mr. WALDIE. Well, just getting them employed is one of the things we are trying to do, right?

Mr. KATOR. Yes, but we are also concerned about what kind of employment we give them, for example. We are concerned that we have inputs from all parts of the country so the decisionmaking in the Federal Government is simply not done by Anglos.

Mr. WALDIE. I understand that. Now, within the Spanish-surnamed group that you have been enabled to bring into Federal employment to demonstrate yours and the administration's and the Nation's commitment to providing a better opportunity for these Americans, can you tell me how many of these Spanish-surnamed are in fact Americans of Mexican descent?

Mr. KATOR. No, I cannot tell you.

Mr. WALDIE. Can you tell me how many in fact are Americans of Puerto Rican descent?

Mr. KATOR. No: I cannot tell you.

Mr. WALDIE. Can you tell me how many in fact are Americans of Spanish descent?

Mr. KATOR. NO: I cannot tell you.

Mr. WALDIE. You cannot tell me then how we have met the objective of bringing the most disadvantaged of the Spanish-surnamed into Federal employment, unless you don't agree that there is any distinction in terms of disadvantaged between the groups I have listed. Is there a distinction in your view?

Mr. KATOR. Well, I think Mr. Waldie, we are trying to make equal opportunity available to all persons, including those of Spanish-surnamed which includes the Puerto Ricans, which includes

Mr. WALDIE. I know that, but I want to see how well you are doing in what you are trying to do.

Mr. KATOR. Can I say this in further response. The way we identify individuals in the Federal Government to get the figures we come up

with, is by supervisory identification. We don't ask, though we did try once, to ask the individual, "What are you, who are you." We did once and he resented it. We didn't get any kind of figures that made any sense at all.

So we returned to a system where we asked the supervisor to identify the employees that work for him. Now, the first thing, it is very difficult for a supervisor, without contacting the employee, to find out whether he is of Mexican descent, or whether he is of the various categories we discussed. That is one basic reason why we don't do that.

The second thing is geographically we know that in Texas, for example, these are largely people of Mexican descent. If we are talking about New York, the census figures show us that the large Spanishspeaking population is Puerto Rican.

Mr. McCLORY. Will the gentleman yield for a clarification?
Mr. WALDIE. I will in just a moment.

At that point, let me interrupt you. Is the major increase in the employment of the Spanish-surnamed that you described geographically, is it located in New York or in Texas?

Mr. KATOR. I can't tell you that now.

Mr. WALDIE. Why not?

Mr. KATOR. I will be able to tell you that, Mr. Waldie, very shortly. The last survey that was made every 6 months, the May survey, doesn't get it by geographical area. The survey which is already made and which I can get figures very shortly for you will indicate the geographical areas where the increases have occurred.

Mr. WALDIE. Do you have any thought on it?

Mr. KATOR. I can just hazard a guess. I would say that probably the major gains will be reflected in New York.

Mr. WALDIE. That would be my guess, also.

Mr. KATOR. And in California, I was going to add.

Mr. WALDIE. I yield to Mr. McClory.

Mr. McCLORY. Is there any opportunity for you in the application form to require information with regard to descent or other identification so you could distinguish between those of Puerto Rican origin or Mexican American or Spanish descent?

Mr. KATOR. No.

Mr. McCLORY. So that there is really no right on your part, is there, to require that kind of information?

Mr. KATOR. No. In fact, there was a time when the Federal application contained this and even required a photograph, but an assurance to avoid the kind of discrimination that normally comes from that kind of thing, this has all been discontinued and we don't know from the application what the individual's color or religion is.

Mr. McCLORY. Just yesterday the House of Representatives passed a bill to require information with regard to race or color for jury qualification forms because that type of information is vital in order to establish the selection of a jury without discrimination.

Mr. KATOR. Right.

Mr. McCLORY. Would it be helpful to require that type of information on your application forms?

Mr. KATOR. I don't think so, because under the civil service law, what we are required to do is look at merit and fitness for the job regardless of what the man's color or religion or ethnic origin may be.

Mr. EDWARDS. The gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Keating.
Mr. KEATING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have been asked to retrace some steps for a moment. This subcommittee, as the chairman has indicated, has oversight over all civil rights. The subject this morning is minority employment with the principal thrust on that minority employment of Spanish descent or Spanish-speaking Americans.

Mr. Kator, you stated that the Executive order is the most vigorous ever issued by any President on equal opportunity in the Federal Government and you followed with the 16-point program, explaining that program with respect to minority employment.

Now, let me get to some of the questions that I have with regard to this subject. We have not discussed Cubans who have come into the country to a large extent in the Florida area and the Southeast area. Are they included in the figures that you have?

Mr. KATOR. To the extent that they are Federal employees they would be included, but many of the Cubans, of course, are noncitizens

Mr. KEATING. Correct.

Mr. KATOR (Continuing). In the Miami and Tampa areas and noncitizens are not eligible for Federal employment except under certain restricted conditions.

Mr. KEATING. Do you have any kind of figures on employment of the Cubans who are noncitizens? You are only dealing with Federal employment?

Mr. KATOR. Yes, so that would be only with those who are citizens. Mr. KEATING. That could probably come from the Labor Department. Mr. KATOR. Yes. We did meet, Mr. Keating, with the Cabinet Committee on Opportunities for the Spanish-speaking people in Atlanta recently where the main focus was the Cuban situation in the Miami area. The problem of citizenship was one that we discussed with the Federal agencies concerning their efforts to assure equal opportunity down there.

Mr. KEATING. The question has been pursued in some depth this morning about your position in complying with the Civil Rights Act in nondiscrimination toward all Americans, white, black, Spanish American, and so on, and the efforts of many of the agencies is to increase minority employment, and that seems to be the goal of all agencies.

Now it is hard, to use Congressman Wiggins' phrase, to square the employment practices of trying to achieve the goal of minority employment and still the nondiscrimination to the Anglo, to the black, to the Spanish American, and so on.

Mr. KATOR. Mr. Keating, we don't think so. We think that by carrying out various affirmative action programs, which means recruiting efforts, working in the community on problems which may prevent certain groups from having an opportunity to work in the Federal Government, from doing numerous things of this kind, we can open up and remove barriers which formerly kept persons of minority groups from Federal employment.

All we are trying to do is remove those barriers so they do have in fact an equal opportunity to compete.

Mr. KEATING. So then this involves recruitment, training, and programs of this sort, is that correct?

Mr. KATOR. Yes.

Mr. KEATING. I might be a little parochial and refer to my home area where we have had a good deal of difficulty in providing some balance to our police and fire department and municipal employment. The Human Relations Committee and to some extent the opportunity groups have taken upon themselves to train people so they can fulfill the requirements and have sufficient credentials to meet the standards of the Civil Service Commission locally.

Is this the kind of thing you are doing at the Federal level?

Mr. KATOR. Yes, we have a program of this kind called public service careers where it reaches out to the hard core unemployed, it brings them into Federal agencies at the beginning level jobs. It provides training to them and it provides a guaranteed spot in the agency if they complete the training.

In addition to that, we have what we call a worker-trainee examination that no one on the subcommittee, with all due respect, could pass because the examination doesn't work that way. It is designed to get people for lower level employment and the individual who is overeducated doesn't qualify for an entry level job at grade 1.

We hire about 18,000 to 20,000 each year in that category. There is an effort to reach out to those groups.

Mr. KEATING. The statistics which you cite show a more successful picture than our local picture, so that our Cincinnati police department has gone to a trainee level from 18 to 21 in an effort to try to prepare them for the uniform services in our community.

The upward mobility thrust of your efforts from your statement seem to be somewhat successful.

Mr. KATOR. Yes. We think we are really making progress on upward mobility. This is an attempt on the part of agencies with our encouragement to provide special training for all lower level people regardless of their race or their religion, and because if they are on the lower levels they have been disadvantaged regardless of what their race or ethnic background is.

It is an attempt to provide them with the kind of training, if they want it, which will help them be able to compete and qualify for a higher level job.

Mr. KEATING. Somewhere in your statement, and I cannot identify the page, you indicated that you took a survey and you referred to it as an agenda for evaluation. Would it be possible for us to see what one looks like?

Mr. KATOR. It is a check sheet and I would be glad to make the special evaluation agenda available. This is the basis for our evaluators who go visit an agency onsite to see what efforts they are making to assure equal employment opportunities.

Mr. KEATING. I believe you indicated that you don't, but do you have any percentage or numerical requirements in your programs? Mr. KATOR. No, sir.

Mr. KEATING. I have no further questions.

Mr. EDWARDS. Mr. McClory.

Mr. McCLORY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I do want to emphasize how extremely significant the testimony in this hearing is

this morning, particularly to young people who are concerned about ending discrimination and providing equal opportunities to establish to the extent possible an idealistic society and one which is fair and equal to all citizens, regardless of race, color, or national origin.

In my congressional district, we have a substantial number of Spanish-speaking persons originally from Puerto Rico and more recently Mexican-Americans, and one of the problems we seem to have is that there are differences between the members of the Puerto Rican community and Mexican-American community which are sometimes very difficult to reconcile.

They speak just a little bit differently, apparently, and they want their own distinct leadership and they have their own distinct way of wanting to achieve their goals.

Do you have any experience with this problem where there are Spanish-speaking people of different backgrounds and how can we help to reconcile these points of view in order to get them to work closely together?

Mr. KATOR. Just let me say one thing, and I would like Mr. Costales to elaborate. He may have more insight into that than I do.

What you say, Mr. McClory, is certainly true. There are different backgrounds and different ways of thinking.

Mr. McCLORY. We have had difficulty, for instance, in developing our OEO programs partly for that reason.

Mr. KATOR. We work closely with organizations, whether it be a Puerto Rican organization or Mexican organization. This is one way we are able to find out what the special problems are and what actions. we need to take particularly with that group.

Mr. Costales, would you have any comments on that?

Mr. COSTALES. I think I recognize that there are these interests among specific groups, but I don't like to think they are any more different, you see, than the Anglo society. I think the Knights of Columbus are much different and they want their own leadership compared to the Masonic order and this type of thing.

Why is it, you see, that we wouldn't want this type of leadership that the organizations want. I believe that the organizations are asking for this. They are asking for leaders within their organizations who understand their particular problems. I believe there are organizations, and I recently encountered this last week in Oregon with the valley migrant workers league. They want their leaders to be representatives of that league, because they are aware of the particular problems that exist.

I think the other thing that the organizations would like to see is that in any type of OEO program or poverty program that this type of leadership is recognized by the management, by the system, so that the programs which involve the poor will recognize the problems as identified by the minority community.

Mr. McCLORY. And get representative leadership from all groups?
Mr. COSTALES. Right.

Mr. McCLORY. Another subject which is a very live on in my district is an educational, job training program, with regard to Spanishspeaking Americans and I think this is something which might also be of particular interest to young people who are thinking about careers.