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should utilize the special expertise of NASA where that is most cost-effective way to reach the system's objectives. Experience with the organizational arrangements developed and tested between Interior, NASA, and the users of Earth resources data since the mid-1980s, suggests that effective ways can be found to utilize such NASA expertise.

Question. To what extent has the U.S.S.R. purchased Landsat-type data from the EROS Data Center at Sioux Falls, South Dakota? Do the Soviets purchase all of their data from Sioux Falls or do they purchase Landsat data from other distribution centers? Have the Soviets ever offered any of their data to the EROS Data Center? Who is the largest purchaser of data from the EROS Data Center? Answer. The U.S.S.R. has been a relatively small purchaser of Landsat deta from the EROS Data Center. They account for only 5 or 10 inquiries and contacts a year out of a total of 50.000-80.000. To the best of our knowledge, the U.S.S.R. has not ordered any data from other U.S. distribution centers.

The U.S.S.R. has never offered any of their data to the EROS Data Center, but has presented some copies of technical publications and reports to the Center Library.

The largest general class of purchaser of Landsat data has been U.S. industry and, within this class, the petroleum and mineral exploration and production companies have been the largest purchaser.

Question. How should the funding to develop and establish the operational system be provided? By annual appropriation, or some other way?

Answer. There are two approaches that might be followed to fund the development of any future operational system. The approaches are:

(a) Fund the development out of annual appropriations, or

(b) Seek industrial funding with an agreement that the Federal Government will be a large enough user of the system to assure financial success as a business venture, similar to the Tracking and Data Relay Satellite System.

It is too early to determine what funding scenarios might be feasible and desirable for any future operational system. That would depend upon both the character of the operational uses which may develop over time for the system's outputs and the organizational arrangements which may be determined to be best. Question. What would you estimate the cost of developing and establishing the system?

Answer. Interior is not able at this time to estimate the cost of developing and establishing an operational system. The characteristics of an operational system designed to maximize net benefits to the Nation are not currently known. System costs will depend upon the optimum spatial resolution, optimum wavelength bands, optimum repetition cycle, and other characteristics which cannot be determined until user demand are much better understood than they are now. Future funding requirements would depend on the rates of change in the technological approaches and the amounts recovered from the sale of data.

Question. What should be the user charge policy for the operational system? Answer. The full costs of any operational system, including both capital and operating costs, should be recovered by the Government by payments from users, including Federal Agency users. From some points of view, requiring payment from Federal Agency users might seem to unnecessarily require "paper" transactions. However, such an approach would put the costs of the system ultimately in the budgets of the agencies and private authorities demanding the system's products, ensuring that their demands for each product are based upon user calculations that its benefits exceed its costs.

Question. Should the legislation contain any policy statement about user charges?

Answer. When the appropriate time comes for legislation to authorize an operational system, we think that such legislation could appropriately include a policy statement permitting a user charges policy of the kind described in the previous answer. We believe that more detailed specifications of the form and amount of user charges would not be desirable.

Question. Can and should the development and operation of an operational Earth Resources and Environmental Information system be made financially viable in the sense that the sale of products generates enough revenue to pay for system development and operation?

Answer. As indicated above, the capital and operating costs of an operational system should be recovered from users. Users should contribute to recovery of development costs to the extent that the market makes that possible.

Question. S. 657 provides that NASA would continue the R&D of remote-sensing systems, both the space segment and the data processing segment. What role

should the Department of the Interior play with respect to the R&D of the data processing segment?

Answer. As indicated above in the answer to question #3, the precise role which NASA might play in any future operational system cannot now be defined. While we may reasonably speculate that NASA would continue to have a significant R&D role for an operational system, the precise boundaries of that role clearly would depend on the particular organizational arrangements for the rest of the system which the Government concludes are optimum.

Question. Should such research and development costs be part of the user charge, that is, paid for by the sale of the products of the operational system? Answer. As indicated above, the capital and operating costs of an operational system should be recovered from the users. Users should contribute to recovery of the research and development costs to the extent that the market makes that possible.

Question. How should the revenues from the system be handled-should they go directly to the U.S. Treasury or should some other provision be made,

Answer. The question of user charges to operators of stations that have access to the satellite directly should be addressed to NASA. Revenues obtained from the sale of data should be used to support costs of producing data. In this manner, data reproduction is partly self-supporting, and tends to reduce the need for Congressioanl appropriations.

Question. Should there be any restriction placed on the resale of the data from the operational system?

Answer. There should be no restrictions on the resale of raw data from the operational system as long as it is operated by the Government. The Government does not copyright its data, information, or publications, but produces them as a public service and allows the public to reproduce them without paying royalties to the Government.

Question. Can Federal agencies develop and operate the system without achieving substantial losses?

Answer. We do not expect the spacecraft and sensor design and construction costs and launch costs to be recovered in the near future. With regard to annual recurring costs for operation of the spacecraft and reproduction and dissemination of the data, we believe that a large part of these costs can be recovered within several years. The time that will be required will depend on the demand for data.

Question. Has the Department of the Interior been assigned operational frequencies necessary for an operational Landsat-type system?

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Answer. The Department of the Interior has requested and obtained frequency assignments adequate for receiving sensor data equivalent to the multispectral scanner. These frequencies are not adequate for thematic mapper data or any sensor with data rates significantly higher than the existing multispectral

scanner.

Question. Can these frequencies be reassigned to the National Aeronautics and Space Administration if that Agency operates the space segment?

Answer. These frequencies were assigned for a specific function and could probably be used by NASA if that agency operated the space segment.

Question. NASA is planning a communications relay satellite-the TDRSSwhich will relay data from various earth orbiting satellites including Lansat-D to a single reception point in New Mexico. In your view, is that communications relay technique applicable to the operational Earth Resources and Environmental Information System?

Answer. In our view, the communications relay technique is applicable to an operational Earth resources and environmental information system.

Question. How do you envision that the data will be retransmitted from the New Mexico station to users elsewhere in the United States and around the world? Answer. We envision that data received from a TDRSS or its equivalent in New Mexico would be retransmitted to processing facilities and users elsewhere in the United States and around the world by a combination of the existing Domsat and Intelsat capabilities.

Question. To what extent should ground stations of other nations be permitted direct access to an operational system?

Answer. Ground stations of other nations should be permitted access. Foreign stations with access to an operational system should agree to open data availability policies and provide listings or catalogs of their data holdings to the international community.

Question. If foreign ground stations or any other ground stations are permitted direct access to the operational satellite, what should be the user charge policy?

Answer. NASA is charging other nations $200,000 a year for their direct reception of data from the experimental Landsat satellites. NASA is conducting a study to determine a sound basis for user charges. The conclusions of this study should be obtained from NASA after the study is completed.

Question. Should any users be permitted to access the system at the ground receiving station say in New Mexico rather than at the distribution center?

Answer. The policy for access to data is that the data should be available to all private sector users at the same time, and there should be no preferential treatment for any single user. Federal Government agencies might be permitted to locate analysis capabilities at New Mexico to support their own activities. Question. How should the user charges be handled?

Answer. User charges are of three basic types. These are: (a) Charges for data products; (b) Charges for technical assistance; and (c) Charges for participation in the program.

The charges for data products should recover the costs for materials and labor to reproduce the products.

Charges for technical assistance should cover the additional costs of providing the assistance, such as time of instructors, materials used, and essential transportation.

Charges for participation in the program, such as foreign ground station charges, are under study by NASA.

The subject of user charges needs a better experience base before final statements or policies can be made. A few basic facts can be stated based on our experience up to the present time.

(a.) Some charges are desirable since they serve to separate casual from serious

users.

(b.) Charges should not be so high that they discourage serious users. (c.) An increase in charges may not always increase reimbursements. We feel that user charges should be returned to the program elements where they are collected. This has the effect of reducing requirements for additional appropriations and encouraging more efficient operation within the program. Question. To ameliorate the international issues, S. 657 provides for the establishment of the domestic operational system with the information available on an equal basis to all users, foreign and domestic. What international problems would the passage of S. 657 generate?

Answer. We do not believe that the passage of S. 657 would generate any international problems.

Question. Should the bill provide that the United States participate in the establishment and operation of an internationalized operational system?

Answer. The United States should be allowed the opportunity for participation if it is feasible. Participation might take several forms, such as truly international system under the auspices of the United Nations or some other international body, or allow other countries to participate with the United States in a global system.

Question. Is it technically feasible to separate at the distribution center remotely sensed data and information so that such data and information can first be made available to the sensed countries before access is granted to third parties?

Answer. It is not technically feasible. Separation on a country-by-country basis of the image data at the distribution center would require identification of all national boundaries, cutting or masking of photographic images, complete reformatting of magnetic tapes, and a complete change in the cataloging system. Even if technically feasible, this would greatly increase the cost for the data. The infeasibility of this approach may be shown by the two examples. First, where a boundary between two countries is disputed, a decision would have to be made concerning which country would get the data in the area of dispute. This is not an issue that should be settled on the basis of cutting of photographs. Second, a country that has declared a 200-mile seaward limit may be within 200 miles of another country.

Question. During the hearings Senator Schmitt requested the Department of the Interior to provide the Subcommittee with detailed comments on how the Bill might be improved independent of what OMB might have asked you to say about S. 657. You said you could do that. It would be greatly appreciated and would you please include any technical comments you or your General Counsel might have.

Answer. As we have stated, we believe that a commitment to an operational system is premature at this time, and we regret that we cannot support S. 657. Existing legislation provides sufficient authority for future experimental evaluation, and we will work closely with the President's Science Adviser to evaluate the needed interim institutional arrangements to assure that data and technology are available to current and prospective users. The nature of specific comments would depend on a number of alternative approaches. Any comments that we might make at this time could be inappropriate if the Administration selects an approach that is not consistent with the assumptions of S. 657.

Senator STEVENSON. The next witness is Mr. Howard Hjort, Director of Economics, Policy Analysis and Budget, Department of Agriculture.

Please proceed, Mr. Hjort.

STATEMENT OF HOWARD HJORT, DIRECTOR OF ECONOMICS, POLICY ANALYSIS AND BUDGET, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE; ACCOMPANIED BY HAL STRICKLAND, REMOTE SENSING COORDINATOR

Mr. HJORT. Mr. Chairman and members of this subcommittee, I am pleased to have the opportunity to discuss with you the Department of Agriculture's views on Senate bill 657.

I would like to introduce to you Hal Strickland, who as the remotesensing coordinator for the Department, is with me to answer the difficult questions.

I will take the easy ones.

As you requested, my remarks will address proposals in the bill, including the proposed organization concept of an operational system, and how the legislation would impact the responsibilities of USDA. This Department is a longtime user of remote sensing. For example, it has produced and used aerial photography for nearly 40 years. It has used black and white and color photography for land-area measurements, crop and soil surveys, mapmaking, and land surveying.

More recently, USDA has experimented with color infrared photography for use in crop identification and stress detection. We recognize the potential of satellites as a valuable new source of data to help meet our responsibilities and are researching its use coninually. The Landsats are now providing repetitive multispectral data in computer processable form over large areas which permits, for example, the examination of agricultural crops throughout the growing season.

Consequently, we are directing substantial resources toward developing uses for space data and for evaluating its usefulness to the Department. Examples of the Department's remote-sensing research and developmental activities include:

One: The large area crop inventory experiment-LACIE-a joint USDA/NASA/NOAA program to use satellites and historical weather, climate, and agricultural data together with advanced communications technology to estimate global wheat production: The Department plans to pilot test a LACIE-based USDA system on one foreign country during fiscal year 1978. Other countries would be added as technology and budgets permit and cost effectiveness is established.

Two: Forestry applications program-FAP: The USDA and NASA are cooperating in developing and testing ways to use satellite

data to aid the Forest Service in accomplishing its missions. Specifically, they are looking at large area forest and rangeland inventory; impacts of insects and disease on forests; environmental monitoring and impact assessments; and identifying applications of remote sensing for forest and rangeland management. Although it is quite early in the program, results to date are encouraging.

Three: Fire and agricultural weather monitoring: The USDA in cooperation with NOĂA is conducting a program in development and experimentation on automatic data acquisition platforms which can provide real-time fire weather data from remote areas of the national forests. These systems could also be used for monitoring agricultural weather conditions. The platforms automatically sense the important weather and environmental variables and the data are then picked up by the NOAA, GOES satellite system for distribution over national data networks. This technology is indispensable to proper fire protection planning and will be highly useful in monitoring those factors that are important in water supply forecasting. This application is, of course, wholly independent of the Landsat program.

Four: Small area acreage estimation is a statistical reporting service effort to classify and inventory major crops in the State of Illinois, using Landsat data and the high-speed data processing capability of the ILLIAC IV computer at the NASA Ames Research Center. Efforts this year will concentrate on techniques to better spectrally separate crops and on planning for a quasi-operational test during the 1978 crop year.

Five: A USDA remote-sensing user requirements task force is directed to catalog the Department's requirements for remotely sensed Earth resources data; to categorize them in terms of departmental priorities and expected benefits, and to develop a coordinated plan for acquiring, processing, analyzing, and distributing the data. The task force effort is now nearing completion.

Preliminary task force reports indicate that the current and planned Landsats could satisfy about 20 percent of the Department's needs for remotely sensed data.

It is essential that the most effective technologies be applied to the problems of gathering data about food and fiber crops, forests, soìl, water, and mineral resources of the Nation and of the world.

It is essential that the most efficient technologies are applied to monitoring not only the condition of these resources, but also to the way in which use or management practices applied in caring for and harvesting renewable resources affect future soil, water, and vegetative conditions.

Finally, it is essential that information about crop and environmental conditions are disseminated quickly to both Federal and private users who will use the information in their day-to-day management activities.

Section 302 requires NASA to complete the validation of the system. Experience indicates that validation and acceptance of any system is best done by users of the system, rather than by those who design and develop it. Those who conceive, design, and develop a system may be able to judge if a system performs as expected. However, it is the end user who must judge whether or not all relevant factors were considered in the concept and design, whether it meets his require

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