increase their transportation in that manner, why can not the barges do it, and the wooden barge is just as good as a steel barge for that purpose.

Senator OVERTON. The cost is greater.

Mr. MANSFIELD. The refiners of my State have been shipping it in these drums. It is convenient. They will put out a drum where a man is consuming it and when they deliver another they take the empties back.

Senator OVERTON. Are there not these objections to the use of the drum? There is additional cost of loading?

Mr. MANSFIELD. Labor cost, yes; but it is nearly all done by machinery.

Senator OVERTON. And unloading?

Mr. MANSFIELD. Yes, sir; much of it.

Senator OVERTON. And also they cannot carry the tonnage.

Mr. MANSFIELD. Not in a box car.

Senator OVERTON. That can be carried in a barge. A barge that uses drums cannot carry the quantity it could in bulk.

Mr. MANSFIELD. That is in bulk and not in drums? Now, my information is that an ordinary steel tank car will generally hold about 8,000 gallons, that is about 190 barrels. My information is that in these drums loaded in box cars, they carry about 6,500 gallons per car instead of 8,000. Now, I just got that information from a newspaper. I do not know whether it is correct or not. If you have oil, heavy oil, in cans or barges, you have got to heat it to unload them. You have got to have steam pipes. There is not much difference in cost, I imagine.

USE OF PROPOSED CANAL FOR TRANSPORTATION OF DRY CARGO

Senator PEPPER. Judge, would you address yourself to the service this canal would render with respect to dry cargo as well as petroleum products?

Mr. MANSFIELD. That would be of immense value. I will give you one instance, Louisiana and Texas now ship about 32 million tons of sulfur, 90 percent of which is for Government use in the war effort. Sixty-seven percent of the sulfuric acid in industries is made from that sulfur from Louisiana and Texas and the cost of transportation has been increased from a little over an average of $2 a ton to about three and one-half times that much. Sulfur is sold f. o. b. the mine. Consequently the Government is paying the freight.

A man in charge of shipping for one of the big sulfur companies told me before the lakes froze over that they were shipping this sulfur from Texas to New Orleans in coast barges. There they were transferring it to the Mississippi River barges, taking it to Chicago, transferring it to the Lake carriers and taking it down to Oswego and transferring it back to barges down the Erie Canal, the barge canal, to the Hudson River to New York and shipping some of it by rail back to Wilmington and Philadelphia. Much of it was going there last fall and you can imagine how much the increased cost of transportation would be. Formerly, it went by these ships around the coast, of course.

TRANSPORTATION OF OIL BY TANKERS AFTER CONCLUSION OF WAR

After this emergency is over this oil is all going back to tankers. Mr. Eastman so testified before the Maloney committee, and Mr. Parten has testified on two occasions, once before my committee and then another committee, that after the emergency is over it will all go back to the tankers anyway, but this barge line would be useful in any event. Tankers do not go to all places along the line. They will come to Norfolk, New York, Philadelphia, and Baltimore, and you then have got to have other means of transportation for delivery to the points of consumption and this barge line would be useful for that purpose. It could supply everything from Florida to Maine, inland, supply the city of Washington. We now bring gasoline by barge from Baltimore and some of it from Norfolk. Just a few weeks ago the papers reported 15,000 barrels were brought here from Baltimore in a big barge. That is a self-propelled barge. It is not pulled by a towboat as these others are.

SHIPMENT OF SULFUR TO EASTERN STATES

Sulfur is a big thing, tremendous in the war. It would all come right up the coast to Wilmington, Philadelphia, Baltimore, all along up here to the great points of consumption, as well as Pittsburgh and Chicago. Sixty-seven percent of the sulfuric acid is made from that sulfur. The Bureau of Mines will give you that information, and sulfuric acid is an essential in practically every industrial product. Senator PEPPER. Judge, I have heard the figure over a million and a half tons of sulfur are being used on the Atlantic coast. Mr. MANSFIELD. Yes, sir; that is my information.

Senator MAYBANK. Nearly all the fertilizer plants have these acid plants

Mr. MANSFIELD (interposing). Georgia is the greatest manufacturer in point of number of plants in operation but not the biggest consumer. Senator MAYBANK. Yes.

Mr. MANSFIELD. New York and Massachusetts are big consumers, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and other Eastern States.

Senator MAYBANK. What I meant to say, Judge, when peace returns the same sulfur can be used in Carolina and Georgia because the land has to be fertilized

Mr. MANSFIELD (interposing). Yes; and we are getting to use fertilizer in Texas, too, Senator. Sulfur is an essential in its manufacture.

MILES OF INTRACOASTAL WATERWAY

Senator PEPPER. Would you address yourself to the significance of connecting the two ends, how much water area already exists on the western end and the eastern end?

Mr. MANSFIELD. Corpus Christi to Trenton, N. J., is 2,400 miles; is that right, General?

General REYBOLD. That is about right, Judge.

Mr. MANSFIELD. Yes; the general knows. The distance across Florida is about 92 miles, something like that.

If that 92-mile section was put through it would put the whole 2,400 miles into operation, and without that it is just like having a railroad running from North to South and a 90-mile section with no road at all. Senator PEPPER. In other words, you have now two local inland waterways.

Mr. MANSFIELD. That is right.

Senator PEPPER. One on the Atlantic coast and one on the Gulf coast, and you do not have a national inland waterway because they are not connected up.

Mr. MANSFIELD. That is right.

ROUTE OF CANAL

Senator LODGE. The only thing, does it go out to sea to connect up? Mr. BUCKMAN. May I answer that question, Senator? You understand the cut section of the canal has to be normally enlarged on a map like this so you can see it. If you will look near the mouth of the St. Johns River, you will see leading off to the north the waterway just inside the coast.

Senator OVERTON. Where is that?

Mr. BUCKMAN. Look at the mouth of the river. You see Mayport? Senator LODGE. Yes.

Mr. BUCKMAN. That is the Intracoastal Waterway just to the west of the river's mouth.

Mr. MANSFIELD. They would have to go out to sea at the Gulf end, but that is small.

Mr. BUCKMAN. They do go to sea on the Gulf every day.

Senator LODGE. With the exception of that stretch, is it correct to say from Corpus Christi to Trenton would be all inland?

Mr. MANSFIELD. That is correct; all inland with that exception which is shallow for many miles in the Gulf, and the submarines cannot get in there. It is reasonably safe. The shallow water will break the force of waves even in rough weather.

Senator LODGE. A ship would be more secure in a hurricane in the inland waterways.

Mr. MANSFIELD. That is right.

Mr. BUCKMAN. If you will look at the map and look at the western terminus of the canal, you will see the little town of Inglis. Near that point is one of the largest power stations in Florida supplied by oil from Texas. They have been hauling oil three times a week for 11 years by barge. They have given us their records for 11 years, and they have never had a loss in the 11 years.

Senator MAYBANK. Have you any idea how many barrels that amounts to?

Mr. BUCKMAN. I have the statement running over 11 years.
Senator LODGE. How long is that course out to sea?
Mr. BUCKMAN. It depends upon the course they take.
Senator THOMAS. Will you furnish the data requested?
Are there further questions of Congressman Mansfield?

AMOUNT SPENT ON INTRACOASTAL WATERWAY
(See pp. 66, 67)

Senator PEPPER. Do you recall how much money it has cost the United States to build the waterways on the Gulf and east coasts which cannot be connected up?

Mr. MANSFIELD. How much the existing channels have cost?
Senator PEPPER. Yes.

Mr. MANSFIELD. It would depend on what is included in the Atlantic coast channel. Some of it consists of deep ship channels. From Norfolk to Jacksonville-to the St. Johns River, 60 miles below Jacksonville. The cost has been something like $22,000,000, and I had the figures not long ago. I had the clerk check them up, something over $22,000,000. You do not remember, General?

General REYBOLD. You are not far off, Judge. Those figures are in the Senate hearings of last year. From Carrabell to Corpus Christi it is a little under $20,000,000.

DEPTH AND WIDTH OF INTRACOASTAL CANAL FROM FLORIDA TO TEXAS

Mr. MANSFIELD. From Florida to Texas it is only 9 feet deep and 100 feet wide. The same bill that authorized the channel across Florida also provides for enlarging the intracoastal channel to make it more comparable with the Atlantic channel 12 feet deep and 125 feet wide, but the channel across Florida is to be 150 feet wide.

Senator GURNEY. How deep?

Mr. MANSFIELD. Twelve feet.

CHANNEL ACROSS SOUTHERN FLORIDA

Senator LODGE. Is there a channel across Florida?

Mr. MANSFIELD. No.

Mr. GURNEY. In the lower part?

Mr. MANSFIELD. That is too far down. It is only 6 feet deep and 80 feet wide.

Senator LODGE. Where is this?

Mr. MANSFIELD. Southern Florida. They created a district down there to reclaim the Everglades.

Senator PEPPER. He is talking about this section from here to there [indicating on map].

Mr. MANSFIELD. Yes; and they provided for a number of channels leading out to the Atlantic Ocean, four of them. They called them canals. Afterward Congress adopted two of them as navigation channels, one down the Caloosahatchee River and leading west to the Gulf. What is that river to the east?

Mr. BUCKMAN. St. Lucie.

Mr. MANSFIELD. St. Lucie, yes; and then they-constructed the channel around the southern boundary of Lake Okeechobee to get the earth to make an embankment to protect the lands on the south of the lake in stormy times from overflowing. There were about 2,000 people killed there by the storms.

We adopted that channel since I have been on the committee, and the act provided that the earth and rock to build this levee would be taken on the lake side and create a channel 6 feet deep and 80 feet wide to be used as a navigation channel. That is what it is. There is no possibility of using it as a canal for the movement of oil to the East.

Senator OVERTON. You go from the intercoastal canal of Texas and then connect with Florida. You would have to put out to the Gulf.

Mr. MANSFIELD. Yes; several hundred miles. They proposed to ship by tankers from Corpus Christi across. If you are going to operate tankers there, you might just as well operate them to Boston and New York. It is just as dangerous on the Gulf as on the ocean, for they have been sinking ships within a few miles of the mouth of the Mississippi River. The German submarines are not going to waste their time where there is nothing to kill. They are going to put them where they can destroy commerce.

Senator OVERTON. If they did that, the bottleneck would be in the 80-foot wide, 6-foot deep canal.

Mr. MANSFIELD. Yes. To enlarge it, you would have to have a survey and report from engineers. Who knows how long that would take? The little channel they wanted up to Tampa from this Caloosahatchee River. The survey was adopted 9 years ago. It has not yet been authorized by Congress. We had it in the omnibus river and harbor bill that died on the calendar, and it failed to pass.

Senator THOMAS. We might put in the record all we can properly put in about losing ships, if we can get that information properly and put it in the record.

We will have to conclude our hearing for today. General Reybold, we would like very much to have you in the morning commencing at 10:30 and we would like to have the best data the Corps of Engineers has available as to the cost of this proposed canal and the time which it would take to build it. This will be the basic evidence the committee would like to have.

We will proceed, then, tomorrow afternoon.

Senator OVERTON. Can the general give us information about towboats and barges?

Senator THOMAS. I think so. Then, if agreeable, we will recess at this time until 10:30 tomorrow and plan to hold tomorrow afternoon, if agreeable with the committee.

(Whereupon, at 12:45 p. m., the subcommittee adjourned until 10:30 a. m., Friday, April 16, 1943.)