forecaster to the field at times when large fires threaten, or when they are actually in existence. In doing so, our forecaster receives a large number of reports, principally from lookout stations operated by the Forest Service, but also supplemented by our own reports from stations that we establish, including the network of reports from the airway meteorological service. In other words, use is made of every possible piece of information, and forecasts are made as to the likelihood of very dry, hot conditions, and of unfavorable wind movements. In the case of a fire already in existence, forecasts are given the areas which are most threatened owing to the likelihood of unfavorable winds, and in the case of fires that have not yet developed, the fire-fighting forces are told of the areas where conditions are favorable for the inception and spread of fires, and they are able thus to concentrate their forces on those areas.

I should like to read into the record in this connection, a resolution that was passed by the Western Forestry and Conservation Association at its recent meeting in Portland, Oreg. It reads as follows:

The forests of the Western States, on which a large percent of their population depends for a livelihood, are subject to heavy losses from forest fires, the spread of which is more affected by weather conditions than by any other natural factor, making regular localized fire weather forecasts and warnings highly essential to private, State, and Federal agencies if they are to take all necessary preventive measures against fire losses and effect adequate, safe, and economical slash disposal measures: Therefore, be it

Resolved, That we commend the fire weather forecasting work now done by the fire-weather service of the United States Weather Bureau with its limited resources, and strongly urge upon Congress the appropriation of increased funds sufficient to provide the forested regions of our Western States with a more completely localized fire-weather forecasting service by the Weather Bureau.

TOTAL INCREASE FOR WEATHER BUREAU

Mr. TARVER. How much of an increase for your entire Bureau are you seeking this time? It seems to me that in your Aerology Division alone the increase is approximately 25 percent.

Mr. GREGG. The largest increase is in aerology; yes. The total increase for the entire service is $470,620.

Mr. TARVER. Just how are we going to balance the Budget if, instead of decreasing appropriations, we continue to increase them from year to year? These various activities of your Bureau that you are talking about are no doubt worthy, but we have been getting along without them and we have no additional source of income to carry on additional activities of this kind. Why not wait until the country gets out of the financial hole that it is in now?

FUNDS FOR AEROLOGICAL WORK

Mr. GREGG. We feel that these slight increases are not only worthy as a matter of fact, but crucially necessary at this time.

In connection with your reference to aerology, it may be pointed out that we have greatly reduced that service in recent years, notwithstanding that flying operations have increased enormously. The airway mileage in the past 2 years has increased 28 percent, for example, and the actual number of miles flown in scheduled flights is about 50 percent more than it was 3 years ago.

Mr. THURSTON. But your increase in aerology from 1928 to this year would be 600 percent.

Mr. GREGG. Since 1928?

Mr. THURSTON. Yes. You were getting $241,500 in 1928, but now it is $1,544,389, or six times as much as you had 8 years ago.

Mr. GREGG. That, of course, was near the beginning of the whole development, which actually begin in 1927. At that time there was very little flying, nothing but one transcontinental airway and three or four feeders.

Mr. THURSTON. Your total for the Weather Bureau in 1924 was $1,900,000, but this year you want $3,900,000, which is a 100 percent increase over about 10 years for your Bureau.

DEMAND FOR INCREASED SERVICE

Mr. GREGG. Yes; but, on the other hand, in 1932 the total appropriation was $4,500,000, and we feel that it was only barely sufficient to take care of the needs then existing.

In the meantime there has been a great increase in those needs, in aerology, in forest-fire weather service, in the river and flood service, and in the crop-weather service, as well as in the distribution of forecasts and warnings, and so forth; yet, notwithstanding that, our appropriation is very materially below what it was at that time.

Mr. THURSTON. But the difficulty that faces us is that every branch of the Government comes up here with the same story, which probably to some extent is true, but this committee really ought to have information as to which one of these proposed increases you can get along best without so that when the bill is written, if deductions are made, we will not deprive some practical, useful branch of the Government of funds that it needs and probably allow support to some less necessary branch.

As I say, that is the difficulty that this committee faces. Of course, we do not have the time or the training to make a survey of each branch, to know which part of it is the most essential, but every group that comes up here wants more money and insists that they ought to have it. As the chairman suggests, we must make a reduction in public expenditures, and yet every Government official who comes up wants a material increase, and so what we would like to know is just what are the most essential items.

Mr. GREGG. I am quite sympathetic with your point of view, I assure you, and I wish to point out that, as a matter of fact, we have included very little here for fundamental research as such. In fact, there is only one item that involves research, and that for a very small amount, about $3,000. All of the rest is for practical service along these various lines that I have endeavored to describe, and for which we feel the need is vital.

Mr. THURSTON. Apparently the chief of each bureau has concluded that if he does not come up here and ask for an increase, it is a reflection upon his service, because, with rare exceptions, every official comes up here asking for an increase; and, with the terrible situation that exists all over the country with regard to unemployment, it seem to me that we do not have the help that we should have from the executive branch of the Government in trying to hold down these expenses. Somewhere and somehow we ought to have the information as to which parts of the service are the most essential, so that we could

47432-36- -10

provide for them and eliminate the others, but we do not get that helpful information. We are told that it is all essential, and all should be increased. I refer to not only your Bureau but to all of them.

INCREASES NECESSARY TO MAINTAIN PROPER SERVICE TO PUBLIC

Mr. GREGG. Yes; I can assure you, however, that the urge merely for increasing the prestige of the Bureau is in no sense the basis for submitting these estimates. They are submitted in the conscientious belief, after a very exhaustive study in the past year and a half, that the increase is needed at this time, in the interest of really essential service to the public.

I should like to point out in this connection that the whole matter was discussed with members of the Science Advisory Board, and they also fully recognized the propriety and the necessity of limiting expenditures in the present economic state of the country, but they were convinced, after a thorough survey of the whole organization of the Bureau and what it is rendering in the way of service and what it should render, that these moderate increases are essential to a proper service to the public, and, of course, we must keep that in mind.

Mr. THURSTON. Without reflecting on your good faith, the same board takes that same action with regard to practically everything else that comes up here, as to increases.

FORECAST IMPROVEMENT INVESTIGATIONS

Mr. TARVER. Will you proceed, Mr. Gregg?

Mr. GREGG. The next item is one of $3,420 for forecast improvement investigations. This is the only item which we have for research, and the purpose of it is to improve the forecast work of the Bureau.

There are several ways in which that improvement can be brought about. One is by making careful studies of our past records and experience, and another is to profit from the experience in other countries. We receive their publications in our library, which includes about 50,000 volumes in all. The library is so large in fact that the limited force that we have for it is unable to do anything except the routine work of receiving and cataloging books and periodicals, and carrying on such necessary translations as are necessary.

This modest amount would enable them to abstract the literature that comes in and to make bibliographies of it for the convenient and prompt use of our forecasting staff in efforts to improve the bases of forecasting.

I think you will recognize that the staff of the library is quite inadequate when I say that, notwithstanding that we have about 50,000 volumes and are constantly receiving numerous periodicals from other services throughout the world, we have only three people for carrying on the whole program.

HURRICANE INVESTIGATION

Mr. TARVER. Did you discuss hurricane investigations yet?

Mr. GREGG. No; there is no item for increase in the hurricanewarning service.

Mr. TARVER. I understand that one is to be sought by some of the Members of Congress from Florida who are vitally interested.

I would like to have you indicate whether or not you feel that there is any need for an increase in that appropriation at this time, and what could be done with it if you had that increase.

Take the last hurricane in Florida last year. I would like to have you tell us whether or not there was any failure in your service in the matter of giving warning of the approach of that hurricane.

Mr. GREGG. There were three major hurricanes during the past

year.

Mr. TARVER. I have reference to the one which resulted in the wiping out of camps on the keys below Miami, with a loss of the lives of a large number of veterans located there at that time, and wish to inquire whether there was any failure of your service in connection with the giving of a warning as to the approach of that hurricane and, if you had had greater facilities, if any thing more could have been done to prevent that loss of life.

HURRICANE WARNING SERVICE

Mr. GREGG. In connection with that, I may say that the service which was set up with the $80,000 appropriation which was allowed us last year resulted in a very great improvement in the character of the service, in the completeness of the reports, and in the timeliness and accuracy of the warnings.

In connection with the hurricane in the early part of September, I may point out that the Engineer Corps of the War Department had some $400,000 worth of equipment and several men on the keys, and on the basis of the warnings which were issued by the Weather Bureau, they moved all of that equipment and all of those men. They lost not a dollar's worth of equipment, and not a single man. I should like to say also that the Pan American Airways, basing its action likewise on the same warnings, canceled all flights and moved its planes to Jacksonville and other points in order that they should not be subjected to damage. They also lost no planes and no lives.

Mr. TARVER. Was there any reason why those in charge of these veterans' camps should not have removed them at the same time that these other organizations took care of their personnel and property?

Mr. GREGG. In answer to that, I should prefer to say that we shall be glad to enter as a part of the record all of the forecasts and warnings that were actually issued, if you so desire.

Mr. TARVER. That means, as I understand you, that the War Department, acting upon the warnings which you gave of the approach of this hurricane, removed its personnel and property located in the danger zone?

Mr. GREGG. Yes, sir.

Mr. TARVER. And the Pan American Airways, a private organization, removed its personnel and its property located in the danger zone and avoided damage either to life or property by that action, and yet those in charge of these veterans' camps, receiving the same warnings, took no notice of them until it was too late to accomplish either the saving of life or of property?

Is that right?

Mr. GREGG. Well, we know that they received the warnings.

Mr. TARVER. Did they act promptly upon receipt of the warnings, that is, take precautionary steps upon the basis of these warnings, or did they fail to take such steps?

Mr. GREGG. Of course, our responsibility as we see it is to get the. warnings to the various people that are involved, and we do not assume the responsibility of following up to see what action was taken by

them.

Mr. TARVER. I understand that.

If there are no further questions along that line

Mr. GREGG. I think that the action that was taken by the Pan American Airways and by the Engineer Corps of the Army, however, is significant as to the character of the service, and I should like to add that we feel that it was vastly improved, and that that came about as a result of the appropriation which was allowed us by Congress a

year ago.

With regard to increasing the service, it is true that all of the information that we can get from ships in the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean region will by that much improve the service, and, to the extent that it is practicable, any effort that is made to increase the observational set-up in those areas will be helpful.

Mr. THURSTON. The press last night carried an item in regard to a very heavy storm on the Pacific Ocean, stating that two or three ships were lost and a number of lives sacrificed. Of course, on those occasions sometimes the management sends the ships out irrespective of the warnings or of the severity of the storm?

Mr. GREGG. I presume so. I am not familiar with that particular

case.

Of course, it is a fact that shipping is not as active on the Pacific, in certain areas of it, as on the Atlantic. There are areas from which we get little information from ships' reports and this makes it extremely difficult to tell in advance what the developments will be. Mr. THURSTON. Of course, this service to the mariners and to those engaged in shipping is highly valuable and very practical. Mr. GREGG. Yes. I think there is no question as to that.

PHILIPPINE ISLANDS WEATHER SERVICE

Mr. THURSTON. I remember while in Manila recently I visited the station there, which, of course, is primarily engaged in reporting typhoons and the other very devastating storms that they have in that area.

Mr. GREGG. Yes.

Mr. THURSTON. It is claimed that that station has rendered very valuable service, not only to shipping interests but to all of the people that live within that area.

Mr. GREGG. It is a very efficient service.

You met Father Selga, the director?

Mr. THURSTON. Yes.

Mr. GREGG. I know him quite well.

Mr. THURSTON. I was surprised that they could render that service with the apparent lack of a modern plant there.

Mr. GREGG. Yes. I was surprised, though, in talking with him in Warsaw at a recent conference, to find that they have actually been able to establish a fairly comprehensive network of stations there, and