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would be shared by some 15 agencies of the Federal Government, which are devoting considerable time, energy, and money to scientific development in their everyday operations. I submit that this is not a very big investment alongside what is being contributed to this exposition by the city and State and what will be forthcoming from private industry in this country and overseas. The exposition wlil make a major contribution to the peace of the world through encouraging better understanding among nations.

Mr. Chairman, I am convinced that this is a very worthwhile project, which we have needed in this country for a long time. For years we have been spending millions and millions of dollars, and I think justifiably so, on trade fairs and various other expositions all over the world. These have done a big job for us. But during the past few years we suddenly have been awakened to the fact that our very survival during the next century depends upon how well we develop our scientific resources.

Science today has more appeal than ever before. But I wonder if we really are going to be able to get public support for expensive programs of scientific research and development if the people at large are not given an opportunity to see just what we are doing. I think it is time we did something of this nature, and I think it is time we showed our own people as well as the rest of the world what we are doing in these basic fields.

Every dollar spent on the exposition will be a dollar well invested in the future security of our Nation.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this opportunity to speak in behalf of this sound and very necessary legislation.

Mr. MILLER. Thank you. That is a very comprehensive statement, Mr. Magnuson.

I certainly agree with the conclusion that we have to dramatize the work we are doing in science. Perhaps "dramatize" is not a good word; but make it available to the people of the country and the people of the world.

I want to express my congratulations to the people of the State of Washington and Seattle for taking the initiative in this exposition.

May I say before I turn you over to the gentleman on my left who has some questions, it was through the courtesy of Mr. Morgan, chairman of the Committee on Foreign Affairs, and Mr. Fulton, who sits on that committee, that this bill was transferred to this committee, where I am sure it will receive more sympathetic understanding than in the hands of the-international-minded people who serve on the other great committee.

Mr. FULTON. I do not know where that leaves me, Mr. Chairman. I am on both committees.

Mr. MILLER. You notice I hesitated when I got to "internationalminded."

Mr. FULTON. The problem comes up on the amount of money to be authorized for appropriation under this bill. On page 2, lines 17 through 20, it says:

There are hereby authorized to be appropriated, to remain available until expended, such sums as may be necessary to carry out the provisions of this Act, including participation in the exposition.

Would you object to our putting a ceiling on this authorizing legislation of $12.5 million?

Then the next question: Is $12.5 million in your estimation the minimum amount? Is that too high, too low, or what about the figure? Representative MAGNUSON. Well

Mr. MILLER. I wonder if the people from the Department of Commerce who have made a study on this, who are prepared to come in, as I understand it, and make this justification, rather than our colleagues, aren't the ones who could best answer the question.

Mr. FULTON. I would like his estimate as to whether it is necessary and whether he would recommend such a figure.

Representative MAGNUSON. So far as I know, there would be no objection to a ceiling of $12.5 million.

Mr. FULTON. Then you feel the figure of $12.5 million is the minimum figure that the fair should have for U.S. participation?

Representative MAGNUSON. This program was studied very carefully by the Bureau of the Budget, it was presented to the President and his Cabinet, it was presented to all departments which might participate, and they arrived at this figure.

I am sure it is a well-considered figure.

Mr. FULTON. Then on page 2, lines 11 to 13, there is a provision for— procure services as authorized by the Act of August 2, 1946 (5 U.S.C. 55A), but at rates for individuals not to exceed $100 per diem.

Both the chairman and I, and individually, wondered about the top figure of $100 a day for people's services who were to be procured under this act.

In your area, considering what the wage rates are and the professional service rates would a $50 a day limitation restrict you too much?

Representative MAGNUSON. I am afraid it would. I suppose this fee is set with the people in mind who will design exhibits. They are not likely to come from our immediate area in Seattle. I think the work will be rather technical.

I am sure Mr. Francis D. Miller, from the Department of Commerce, or Mr. Dingwall from the exposition, director of the exposition, can answer that question better than I.

Mr. FULTON. I really wanted to have your judgment on the economic level of such services; that is, prices in your area and general information.

Representative MAGNUSON. I would judge $50 a day would be rather restrictive, sir.

Mr. FULTON. I favor the leigslation and I think you people are to be complimented on helping with our international policy and also in the development of science in this country.

Mr. MILLER. Mr. Hall?

Mr. HALL. No questions.
Mr. MILLER. Mr. Sisk?
Mr. SISK. No questions.

I think he made a good presentation.

Mr. HECHLER. I have one question which also comes up in whether the local agencies are really putting out the maximum effort insofar as a contribution is concerned. You mentioned a few figures as to the official governmental bodies and what they are doing. You also men

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tioned here on page 3 that there is a big, big investment by private industry in this country and oversea. Could you expand just a litle on what private industry in the area is doing in order to demonstrate that there is the maximum of local initiative being taken?

Representative MAGNUSON. I will break down first the $15 million

figure.

Seven and a half million was appropriated by the State of Washington, seven and a half million by the city of Seattle to get the exposition started.

There also is underway now an extensive public subscriptive drive which I understand is going quite well, and of course it is fairly early yet and we are very encouraged by the response.

Private industry aside from the public subscriptions to be made by people in our State-private industry will, of course, invest very heavily in exhibits.

The exhibits are to be very elaborate; they are going to cost a lot of money.

I think that is

Mr. HECHLER. I think you recognize the reasoning behind my question, that if the Federal Government is going to invest, it wants to be sure the local agencies and private industry are engaging in a maximum effort.

We all have a great stake in the success of this and appreciate this excellent presentation.

Representative MAGNUSON. You can be assured private industry, particularly private industry at home in the State where the exposition is to be held, is wholeheartedly behind it and will spend a commensurate amount of money.

Mr. MILLER. I would say the gross money that will be spent in connection with this exposition will be well over $100 million, because States and other countries will be invited to participate and they will pay for their own participation along with Federal and State particition, that is the history generally of such institutions, having had a little experience with one. We are merely considering the basic amount for Federal, State, and city participation at this time.

I daresay the airplane industry itself in showing off what it has done, will spend more than the amount of money in this bill at this exposition.

Representative MAGNUSON. I think you have probably made a conservative estimate.

Mr. MILLER. Mr. Daddario?

Mr. DADDARIO. I think this Century 21 project is an excellent one. I have been impressed by the fact the city of Seattle and Washington State have already committed themselves to the tune of something like $31 million before the Federal Government has committed itself at all. Isn't that about the right figure?

Representative MAGNUSON. Yes, sir, $15 million in cash and $16 million in land, buildings, and facilities.

Mr. DADDARIO. I am also appreciative of the point you made in your statement that once the exposition is done and over with, there will be permanent buildings and a permanent establishment left that can be utilized by the Federal Government and by the city of Seattle, itself, which would certainly be the aftermath of it after the science part of

it is over, that there will be a general and definite improvement as a result of this project.

Representative MAGNUSON. Yes, and I think it is a much more practical approach than to have to destroy the buildings.

Mr. MILLER. Mr. Anfuso?

Mr. ANFUSO. Mr. Magnuson, it is nice to have you here.
Representative MAGNUSON. Thank you.

Mr. ANFUSO. We have always known of your great interest in matters of this kind and commend you highly for what you are seeking to do here by this exposition.

May I ask you what was in the back of your mind and others in proposing this exposition? What do you actually seek to accomplish on the world level?

Representative MAGNUSON. One of the original primary motivations was to bring a closer relationship between this country and particularly other countries on the Pacific rim. The theme of the show gradually evolved because of the great interest of the scientific community in this country, and I mean the very top level of the scientific community, in having an exposition with emphasis on science, because of the great emphasis on scientific accomplishments in our particular age, to evoke greater interest among the people of our country in science, which inevitably will lead to more scientists, whom we need very badly, and to inform the people of our country and the world of the progress which has been made in science.

Particularly here in this country, we felt the people should be informed because the Government is going to be spending more and more of their taxes in this area.

Sometimes the sums are fabulous, as you know. It was felt that it would be in the public interest to have the people informed.

The response has been very, very gratifying from all sectors, and we think we are going to have a tremendous show. We, of course, out there as you can see by these figures-are committed, we are past the point of no return.

Mr. ANFUSO. You hope to emphasize the peaceful scientific discoveries, don't you, what can be done for peace?

Representative MAGNUSON. That is true.

Mr. ANFUSO. You mentioned the countries in the East. Are you inviting the Western Powers, too?

Representative MAGNUSON. Yes, as I understand it, the President very soon will send out invitations."

Mr. ANFUSO. Are you inviting the Soviet Union?

Representative MAGNUSON. I cannot answer that question. There will be witnesses.

Mr. FULTON. I can answer that.

Under the previous authorizing legislation it is possible to invite the Soviet Union or any Communist government that is a recognized government, or de facto, away from the Pacific rim.

In the Pacific rim, no de facto Communist government can be invited which would exclude China, North Korea, and North Vietnam. Mr. ANFUSO. Do you go along with that?

Representative MAGNUSON. Yes.

Mr. ANFUSO. I think that is reasonable. I can understand why Communist China would not be invited. She is not recognized. The

Soviet Union is a member of the United Nations and has participated in the International Geophysical Year. Here you hope to emphasize the peaceful aspects. If she is invited and refuses, then the onus is upon her for refusing to participate in this wonderful exposition.

Will you then pass on my thinking, and I think it is the thinking of the entire committee, that that country should be invited? Mr. FULTON. I agree.

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Representative MAGNUSON. It has been the intention all the time to invite Russia and China and with Red China specifically excluded, of

course.

Mr. ANFUSO. This week I hope to introduce a bill calling for a Youth Conference in Science, inviting youth all over the world interested in science to a conference. It was my thinking that it would be a golden opportunity for this country and your State and the entire world if these youth representatives could be invited to your expo

sition.

Do you think facilities can be made available? I understand you are building a lot of buildings, and so forth. Do you think you can take crowds to this exposition from foreign countries and be able to accommodate them?

Representative MAGNUSON. I certainly think this would be an ideal place for them to perhaps hold their conference. What years are you planning on?

Mr. ANFUSO. Same time as yours. I am modeling this bill along the lines of this exposition, and that would be the opportune time and place.

Representative MAGNUSON. It would be ideal. As for accommodations, we are planning, of course, on accommodating tremendous crowds, and I am sure the members of the delegates to such conference could be accommodated as well as any other exposition visitors. Mr. ANFUSO. Thank you very much.

Mr. MILLER. Mr. King?

Mr. KING. Mr. Magnuson, I would like to pursue this theme that Congressman Anfuso brought up for a moment, on the international aspects of this.

In your presentation you mention that this type of exposition contributes to peace, the peace of the world, through encouraging better understanding among nations, which is generally a true statement.

I have found, however, that this type of exposition can become. fiercely competitive. A strong nationalistic element comes into the picture, particularly with Russia vis-a-vis our country. We are engaged in a grim race for survival, it seems to me, which takes on some rather ominous overtones; and sometimes that feeling seeps into these expositions, even as it does into our Olympics, which are ostensibly to promote international good will and feeling. Some of the Olympics have triggered some very, very unhappy incidents and done anything but contribute to international good will and understanding, but have done just the opposite.

Perhaps you are not prepared to discuss this, but the question that passes through my mind is, Are you in a position to work this out in such a way that you have, shall we say, a friendly rivalry between nations which is a good healthy thing-but in which you can avoid

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