Mr. ANFUSO. I move its adoption.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hechler.

Mr. HECHLER. On page 4 I was puzzled by the fourth full paragraph which is just a single sentence. It starts, "The Korean war did. not use" should that be "casualty gases"!

Dr. SHELDON. That is a misprint. I am glad you caught that. That should be gases.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is that?

Mr. HECHLER. On page 4, the fourth full paragraph which is simply two lines which starts, "The Korean war did not use." Should that be casualty gases?

The CHAIRMAN. Gases is what it should be.

Without objection, of course, that correction will be made. You will attend to that, won't you, Doctor?

Dr. SHELDON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it possible, Mr. Ducander, to hold this and release this for Sunday?

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, sir. That is what we intended to do.

The CHAIRMAN. You have heard the motion to approve the report as written. Is there any objection to the motion?

If not, it is unanimously approved. It is so ordered.

We have another bill here this morning which is really a committee bill. It is in my name, but it is the result of many hearings that this committee has had in the course of the past months. I have a short statement here with reference to it.

This is a bill, H.R. 7981, to provide through a special ad hoc committee in the executive branch-for a study of the Nation's need for a complete up-to-date census of scientists, engineers, and technical personnel; to provide for a review of what has already been done in this direction by the various Federal agencies; and to provide Congress with recommendations for possible future legislation on this matter.

H.R. 7981 was drafted and introduced after extensive hearings on scientific manpower and education were held by this committee over a 4-month period. These hearings, although they covered a wide range of topics, indicated that one of the most difficult-but important scientific problems facing the country today is the problem of keeping track of its scientific and technical personnel and anticipate where future scientific manpower needs may arise.

This is the reason for H.R. 7981.

The committee has already heard from a number of competent witnesses who have testified in favor of this, or similar legislation. This morning we have representatives here from the National Science Foundation who will be the final witnesses on the proposed bill. Following the testimony, it is my thought to consider the bill for final committee action. Prior to reading the bill for amendments, we will discuss several changes proposed by the staff and review certain pertinent facts involved in this general problem.

Now, I should like to ask Mr. William J. Hoff, General Counsel for National Science Foundation and Mr. Thomas J. Mills, Head of the Scientific Manpower Section for the Foundation, to proceed with their testimony.

Now, gentlemen, we have this bill before us and I know you have studied it because I have talked to you about it.

(The bill follows:)

[H.R. 7981, 86th Cong., 1st sess.]

A BILL To amend the National Science Foundation Act of 1950, as amended, to provide for an immediate study of the need for, the proper composition of, and the most efficient means of obtaining a continuous up-to-date national record of scientific and technical personnel throughout the United States

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the National Science Act of 1950, as amended, is further amended by adding a new section 3(d) as follows:

"(d) That there is hereby established a Committee on Scientific and Technical Personnel (hereinafter referred to as 'Committee'), to be composed of a Chairman appointed by the Director of the National Science Foundation and one member selected by the President from the Federal Council for Science and Technology and one member (to be selected by the head of his respective agency) from each of the following: The National Science Foundation, the Bureau of the Census, the Civil Service Commission, the Department of Defense, the Department of Labor, the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, and the Central Intelligence Agency."

SEC. 2. (a) It shall be the duty of the Committee

(1) to make an intensive study of the need, both governmental and nongovernmental, for a permanent, comprehensive, and continually current record of scientific and technical personnel throughout the United States which will provide appropriate information on both the formal training of such personnel and their subsequent experience;

(2) to determine the type and kind of information which such a record could most advantageously supply and should be expected to provide;

(3) to determine in what manner and through what means such a record may best be maintained; and

(4) to report its findings and recommendations to the Congress not later than two hundred and seventy calendar days from the date of the enactment of this Act.

(b) the findings and recommendations referred to in paragraph (4) of the preceding subsection shall include (but not necessarily be limited to) the following:

(1) The probable cost of any recommended program.

(2) The estimated length of time which would be required to place an effective scientific manpower tabulation program in operation.

(3) Whether the best results could be expected through compulsory or voluntary means.

(4) What agency of Government should bear responsibility for the program, and whether that responsibility should be exclusive or merely primary.

(5) What agencies of Government should be expected to cooperate with the agency responsible for the program and the manner in which such cooperation should be carried out.

(6) What amendments, if any, to laws now affecting scientific manpower tabulations or registers should be made.

SEC. 3. In carrying out the functions specified in section 2, the Committee is authorized and directed to consult with the Federal Council for Science and Technology, and to obtain the views of such private individuals and organizations as the Committee deems appropriate as well as those of Government agencies not represented on the Committee but having specific interest in the program under study.

SEC. 4. For the purpose of effectuating this Act, each agency represented on the Committee shall furnish, upon the request of the Chairman, necessary assistance to the Committee as authorized by section 214 of the Act of May 3, 1945 (59 Stat. 134; 31 U.S.C. 691). Such assistance may include the detailing of employees to the Committee to perform functions consistent with the purposes of this Act.

SEC. 5. Upon the completion of its study and the submission of its report to the Congress as provided in section 2(a)(4), the Committee shall cease to

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM J. HOFF, GENERAL COUNSEL, NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION

Mr. HOFF. Mr. Chairman, I believe our views have all been put before the committee and we are happy to be here today to answer any questions that any members of the committee may have, but I think the record contains all our views fully.

The CHAIRMAN. I think your views are that the purposes of the bill are satisfactory but you feel the legislation in itself is not necessary.

Mr. HOFF. We have full authority under this area not only under Public Law 507, the National Science Act of 1950, but also within the executive branch by arrangement as confirmed by the Bureau of the Budget.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you this, sir, something that has mystified the committee. Why is it that the years have gone by and we don't have the program underway as it should be?

Mr. HOFF. Well, the question of whether we have done as much or more than we should have is another matter, but we have done quite a bit and Mr. Mills can explain that more fully. The register was started back in 1952 and has been proceeding along with studies as to the recommended coverage and means of doing this and the purposes which it would serve, along with manpower studies.

Now, of course, more could have been done and can be done but it is a question of relative emphasis on different things.

The CHAIRMAN. None of the witnesses has shown that the program has been completed. In fact, all of them who came before the committee said it had not been completed and most of them expressed disappointment, as I remember.

Mr. HoFF. Well, I don't think we could say the program is completed because the coverage and everything else connected with it is under study at all times and it has been expanded from year to year as well.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell the committee why it has not been completed in all of those years.

As I remember the law, there were three or four basic objectives placed in the law and this was one of them. The law was passed in 1950, and 9 years have gone by. This was simply to tabulate a census of societies and 9 years have gone by and there seem to be few results. Mr. HOFF. I think we might explain what has been done. When I say the program hasn't been completed, what I mean by that is that changes will occur from time to time no matter how long it goes on and the program will never be completed in an effort to bring the program to a point where at any given time it will best serve the purposes for which it is intended.

However, we have expanded it, we have studied continuously whether it should be expanded further or not; changes in methods are being considered and I think Mr. Mills might explain just what the

The CHAIRMAN. I might suggest this would be more orderly if Mr. Yeager, being counsel for the committee, could explain the present status of the proposed legislation.

Mr. TEAGUE. May I make one comment?

The CHAIRMAN. Surely.

Mr. TEAGUE. In your present report, isn't there a very complete two or three or four pages telling how much work has been done? I know I was impressed on the amount of work that has been done on this thing. I believe it was in your annual report.

STATEMENT OF THOMAS J. MILLS, HEAD OF SCIENTIFIC MANPOWER SECTION, NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION

Mr. MILLS. Each year we report progress in the annual report, and I believe two or three special reports have been furnished this committee and have been published as part of the hearings.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Yeager, if you could bring us up to date, I would appreciate it.

Mr. YEAGER. I was wondering, Mr. Chairman, if you would like me to put in the record the views of the Science Foundation which we received from them on this matter.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, if you would. I think this is very important.

Mr. YEAGER. When the committee completed hearings in this area and the bill was drafted, letters were sent to the 10 agencies involved who would become represented on the ad hoc committee, the interdepartmental committee, for any comment they might care to make.

Four did not reply. Six did reply. Of those six, four took essentially the same view which was that this was a worthwhile objective, but they felt that legislation would not be needed to accomplish the purposes.

The other two indicated that they were not certain as to whether it was necessary or not, but added that they would be very glad to serve on the committee if it were formed.

Incidentally, I think all agencies which replied expressed a desire to be represented on the committee in the event that the bill was passed.

The ones from whom we heard were the National Science Foundation, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, the Department of Commerce, and the Office of Civil and Defense Mobilization. Those four indicated along the lines that I mentioned— that they felt this matter could be accomplished without specific legislation.

The Civil Service Commission and the Central Intelligence Agency indicated that while they were not certain, they would be very glad to serve on the committee, as did the others.

The reason for the bill essentially was this, that Congress has not had any specific review or recommendations on the matter reported back to them since 1950 when the Foundation Act was evolved, and by that I mean a total review with recommendations for possible legislation if that were needed. The sole objective of this bill is simply to ask that an interdepartmental study be made and that within a period of 9 months following the creation of the study committee that they report back indicating what they have found, what the needs are, and how they might best be obtained-and then make any recommendations which they felt might lead to new legislation or provide additional legislative guidelines for the carrying on of this register.

At the end of that time, the committee would cease to exist. No funds are involved in the measure; each representative agency would be able to stand its own part of the cost.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, when was the law passed authorizing that and what importance did the act place on this matter?

Mr. YEAGER. Are you speaking now of defraying expenses, Mr. Chairman ?

The CHAIRMAN No, the original basic law that provided that this be one of its purposes.

Mr. YEAGER. This was in 1950, Mr. Chairman, at which time eight functions were laid out for the Foundation, of which four were for positive continuing programs. The others, for example, "to develop and encourage the pursuit of a national policy for the promotion of basic research," are general objectives certainly, but they do not seem to require a positive continuing, specific program.

One of the four was to "maintain a register of scientific and technical personnel and otherwise provide a central clearinghouse for information covering all scientific and technical personnel in the United States including its territories and possessions." This was enacted in 1950.

The CHAIRMAN. And it is because that although 9 years have passed the register is not set up there.

Mr. YEAGER. The testimony, as reviewed, Mr. Chairman, by the staff, and I think members will recall, was to the effect that the register, as it is available now, is not satisfactory, and I believe that even the Foundation witnesses themselves indicated that they felt it left much to be desired.

I don't think there was any criticism intended at all at the working level or to suggest not enough had been done within the limitations. imposed, but it appeared to be a question of the high-level decisionhow fast to push this register and how far to fund it.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you finished, Mr. Yeager?

Mr. YEAGER. Except I have some questions I would like to ask the witness.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead and ask them.

Mr. HOFF. Could I reply now?

The CHAIRMAN. Let Mr. Yeager ask his questions and then you can reply to the whole.

Mr. YEAGER. I wanted to verify several facts from the previous record. I was wondering if you could tell me what position the manpower section occupies within the overall structure of the Foundation at the present time. Is it a major division, is it a section, is it an independent office? How does it fit in?

Inasmuch as the manpower program was one of the four major directives specified in the original act, how does it fit in at the present. time?

Mr. HOFF. Shall I answer that before your next question, while I have it in mind?

Mr. YEAGER. Surely.

Mr. HoFF. In section 7 of the National Science Foundation Act, it was provided

until otherwise provided by the Board there should be within the Foundation the following divisions:

(1) A Division in Medical Research,

(2) A Division of Mathematical Physical and Engineering Scientists,