Mr. MACDONALD. No, sir.

Mr. ROBSION. Their failure is due either to breaking up or something of that sort, and that is due to the substructure or to improper jointing and so on.

Mr. MACDONALD. The best possible examples we have of that are some of the roads leading out of the city of Chicago, where the examinations show apparently no wear on the surfaces whatever, although they are carrying thousands of vehicles per day and have been for a number of years. As a matter of fact, the oil and drippings from the cars seem to have almost glazed the surface, so that there is very little, if any, wear.

Mr. ROBSION. In other words, the proposition of the substructure of the soil and the drainage and so on is of prime importance.

Mr. MACDONALD. They are of paramount importance.

Mr. ROSE. As a general proposition, is it impossible to lay down the life of any of these roads unless you know the traffic for which they are used? I have in mind the fact that where I live, at Johnstown, we have large steel works, and our roads are used by big, heavy trucks carrying steel and iron and coal and coke and stone, and surely the life of that road could not be compared with the life of a road that was used by nothing but automobiles.

Mr. MACDONALD. That is very true. The kind of traffic would be a factor in the life of a road, but if the traffic is properly regulated these roads will carry very heavy loads without deterioration.

Mr. ROSE. I had Mr. Sadler, our highway commissioner, tell this committee about the use of the road from Pittsburgh to Johnstown. When the railroad transportation broke down our companies then installed a line of motor trucks running from Pittsburgh to Johnstown, and the road was very materially cut up by the use of these big, heavy trucks on them. Of course, when they have nothing but automobiles, there is no reason why, under general conditions, a road of that sort should not last for a century. I heard our chairman, Mr. Dunn, speak about the way some of the New York roads were used by these large automobiles with chains on them, and things like that, that would naturally break up any sort of road.

Mr. WARD. Mr. MacDonald, that question brings us to a place where I think I can properly ask you this question: You were talking at a former meeting about the way these roads are hurt by overloaded trucks, and you made a very clear, scientific statement of the cause, to wit, the loading of the truck beyond the spring capacity and getting it to where the jar was abrupt, and I want to ask you if you think it is a practical proposition to regulate by Federal law the construction of the trucks used in interstate commerce so that that could be avoided; that is, the construction of the truck in such a way that it could not be overloaded in that manner? Have you ever thought of that, and is it practicable or possible?

Mr. MACDONALD. I doubt if it is possible to regulate the construction of the truck sufficiently to prevent its being overloaded, because manufacturers build a certain safety factor into their truck; that is, they can not depend on the trucks being used under the best conditions all the time. They have to build them for average conditions, so that when used on a smooth road they have a real safety factor and can be safely overloaded so far as the vehicle itself is concerned.

Mr. WARD. I am sorry that is so, because there is a type of man, who is sometimes a gentleman, generally known as a road hog, and he will overload in spite of the devil and do more mischief than his commerce does good.

Mr. MACDONALD. I quite agree with you, and I am satisfied we are going to come to a regulation of commercial trucking, because there we find the greatest overloading tendency and require such trucks to drive over scales at certain intervals along our roads. Such scales are not expensive to install.

Mr. WARD. What is that?

Mr. MACDONALD. To drive over scales installed as a method of regulating the loads. In Connecticut the fines which the State assessed in a short time paid the cost of the installation of the scales.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. MacDonald, there has been a good deal of reference made to the New York roads, and I would like to continue that with you a little. We got roads there and we have paid $120,000,000 for them so far, or at least that amount has been used in road construction by New York State. The substrata of those roads is in pretty fair shape and it has been estimated that we could put another surface on those roads for $2,400 a mile that would last for another 10 years, possibly, or from 7 to 10 years. Now, why should 98740-22-5

we put $27,000 a mile on those roads when they have lasted pretty well until these heavy trucks came along, and now we are going to build a different kind of road. What I am getting at is whether the trucks should not refund to the Federal Treasury some part of the cost of this construction.

Mr. MACDONALD. I answered that question the other day, Mr. Chairman, when I said that in my judgment we would have to charge the trucks a reasonable price for that service.

The CHAIRMAN. I understood you to say the States would do that.

Mr. MACDONALD. Do you mean the Federal Treasury?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We pay one-half the cost of construction in 48 States, and the trucks make the construction, cost twice as much. Now, why should they not pay a fair amount to the Federal Treasury on that account?

Mr. MACDONALD. It is my judgment, Mr. Chairman, that the revenues from the motor vehicles license fees should be first used upon the maintenance. I mean that the maintenance should be a lien upon the income from the motor vehicle license fees. These fees should be sufficient also to pay a fair portion

of the reconstruction costs.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a business tax, just like income.

Mr. SEARS. In my State it goes into the road fund.

Mr. MACDONALD. The motor vehicles are now paying into the road funds approximately the amount we are expending for maintenance. You have in addition to the license fees the excise tax and taxes upon parts and acessories that are going into the Federal Treasury.

The CHAIRMAN. As income?

Mr. MACDONALD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the same as a corporation tax, or something of that sort.

Mr. MACDONALD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. But the destruction that the trucks cause on these roads make the roads cost quite as much as they would cost if there was nothing but automobile traffic.

Mr. CABLE. If the State has to maintain these roads, why should not the State and not the Federal Government get that money?

The CHAIRMAN. The Federal Government would not have to have much of it. The State would still have a good, large tax. A small tax based on the tonnage capacity would raise quite a large sum.

Mr. SEARS. Mr. Chairman, I might say that New York might well follow Florida, although it is one of the youngest States in the Union. We have a law now by which we place an additional tax according to the tonnage of the truck.

The CHAIRMAN. We do that.

Mr. SEARS. And that goes into the road fund for maintenance and for keeping up the roads. We also have a State law providing that where a man tears up the road because of a faulty truck or an overloaded truck, if he has the money, of course, he has to repair it. I think it might be well, perhaps, to provide that the State shall pass such laws when they are given Federal aid, but unless you do that it would be a State proposition solely. I do not think this Government could regulate traffic in a State, unless it was interstate instead of intrastate.

The CHAIRMAN. We heard the other day that Georgia was very liberal in their taxes, and I think Pennsylvania has lately doubled their taxes, and I think New York is considering doubling the taxes just on account of the truck situation.

Of course, I am શ

Mr. WARD. Did you use the word "liberally" there? The CHAIRMAN. I thought it was a very liberal tax. Mr. WARD. I call it just the opposite from liberal. Mr. SEARS. I am like my friend from North Carolina. good-roads enthusiast, and Florida has put a heavy taxThe CHAIRMAN. I will call it an adequate tax. They are talking now about reconstructing these macadam roads, and, as I understand it, that costs $27,000 a mile. And I say that for $2,400 a mile we could get along with them for another 10 years if it was not for these trucks. Mr. LARSEN. You asked me the other day about. Georgia. I understand that the highest-powered truck tax down there is $1,165 for a license.

Mr. CABLE. You would tax them off the road at that rate.

Mr. LARSEN. The same thing applies to pleasure vehicles. The tax runs up as high as $60, as I understand it. It depends on the motor power.

Mr. MACDONALD. Mr. Chairman, I agree with you that we will have to get a large part of our revenues both for maintenance and for road reconstruction from automotive transportation. I am not now prepared to make any recommendations as to a Federal tax for the purpose. That source of revenue has

so far been conceded to the States.

The CHAIRMAN. In some cases do they not run trains of trucks on these roads? I think I have passed some of them in traveling.

Mr. MACDONALD. Yes; there are convoys. We have convoys of separate trucks and we may have a tractor with trailers. I think we are only in the beginning of the development of transportation over the highways. That is the point I have been trying to bring out-that we will be able to capitalize that service and pay for the cost of our roads. I am not prepared to make recommendations as to just how we shall get the revenues into our treasury; but we are doing reasonably well now; that is, the income from the motor vehicles last year was sufficient to pay the entire estimated cost of maintenance of all roads, not only Federal and State roads, but county and township roads-that is, the whole cost of maintenance—and, in addition, there were rather large taxes levied against the industry, part of which went to the Federal Treasury. Also we have a wheel tax in some of the cities and in some States property taxes which go into the general fund, so that the tax against the motor vehicle is probably, taking the whole situation into consideration, as much or more than one-half of the entire amount we are putting into roads now; that is, our entire annual road bill.

The CHAIRMAN. I was over some of the concrete roads in California last January, and I noticed that some of them had metal rods run through them; is that what you call reinforcing?

Mr. MACDONALD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the Government participate in doing work of that kind?

Mr. MACDONALD. Yes; we believe thoroughly in reinforcing the cement concrete roads. This form of construction is not really reinforced concrete in the sense of developing the strength of both the concrete and the steel, but the steel embedded in the concrete holds the slabs when they crack through thermal changes or through overloads together in such a way that the maintenance cost is decreased and the road will give as satisfactory service as if it was not cracked.

Mr. NELSON. Have you any figures that would give us some idea of the relative use of the roads? I mean, for instance, how much are the roads used purely for pleasure purposes by tourists, how much for commercial purposes where they pay for transportation, and how much for actual use by farmers from the farms to market, so that we can find out what we are getting out of this in the way of return.

Mr. MACDONALD. Yes; I can give you figures that will show that very well. For example, we took a census last year of the traffic using two of the important roads of Connecticut. The roads selected were the Boston Post Road on which we observed the traffic at Greenwich, Conn., and the Springfield (Mass.) Hartford (Conn.) road on which we made our observations just south of the Massachusetts-Connecticut State line. In answering your question I will cite figures resulting only from the census taken on the Boston Post Road. There was a close similarity between the results of the two censuses.

On the Boston Post Road we counted an average daily traffic of 3,832 passenger automobiles and 512 motor trucks of all sizes, small and large. By actual count we found that the average number of passengers per automobile was 3.3; and by inquiry of the occupants of the vehicles we ascertained that the average daily travel of these cars was 52 miles.

We examined the cargo of the trucks which passed and when all the data had been summarized we found that the traffic passing the observation point during the two-week period showed a total commodity transportation of 239,562 ton-miles. The commodities transported are classified as follows:

The movement of agricultural products is governed, of course, by the season of the year and the figures here are for only one season. Estimating the value of the agricultural commodities at the average price for each commodity for the year 1921 it is found that the value of the products passing the observation point during the two-week census was $580,000. This is the value of only 14.3 per cent of the total volume of commodities passing the observation station. The value of the rest of the commodities noted was not determined because of obvious difficulties. I believe the figure given, however, is sufficient to show the great value of the commercial and agricultural usage of this one road and in addition to these uses there is the service rendered in the transportation of passengers.

Mr. NELSON. Of course, I understand we are willing to pay for pleasure, too, but when we put so much money into a proposition we ought to be getting something out of it in the way of definite returns.

Mr. MACDONALD. As a general statement, the traffic on the highways will be 90 per cent or more local.

Mr. MOORE. Is that the only State in which you have taken such a census? Mr. MACDONALD. No; we have the traffic data available for Massachusetts, New York, Maryland, Iowa, Wisconsin, California, Tennessee, and other States. In California we determined by a study which covered the whole State and by observing traffic at 103 stations that the average traffic for a 16-hour week-day on the State roads is 1,387 vehicles, classified as follows: Automobiles, 82.6 per cent; passenger busses, 2.2 per cent; motor trucks, 12.4; horse-drawn traffic, 2.7 per cent; extra heavy traffic, 0.1 per cent. We estimated that there was a total daily motor truck-mileage of 286,375 truck-miles on the State roads, and that 23 per cent of all agricultural products were hauled for some distance over State highways. The tonnage of agricultural products only hauled over the State roads, we estimate, amounted to 5,865,000 yearly. At the time we made our study (1920) there were 103 passenger bus lines in operation in the State, 54 having schedules involving two to five round trips daily. The business done by these lines amounted to 610,747 passenger-miles daily, on the paved State highways only.

In Iowa traffic censuses taken at 87 stations in 36 counties showed an average daily traffic on the intercounty road system of 300 vehicles per day, 82.6 per cent of which were motor-driven, and 17.4 per cent horse-drawn. Farm-totown traffic amounted to 47.1 per cent, interurban traffic, 46.1 per cent, and interstate or tourist traffic, 6.7 per cent.

In Minnesota counts made in 1919 showed motor vehicles to be 92 per cent of the total traffic. The percentage of foreign cars (indicative of tourist travel) was reported as averaging about 10 per cent, though the returns of a number of stations showed foreign cars in excess of 25 per cent.

Counts made during 1918 in New Hampshire at 57 observation stations showed foreign cars considerably in excess of local cars.

In Davidson County, Tenn., a study was made, based upon 40 separate traffie counts in such a way that it was possible to show the variation in the traffic at various distances from the city of Nashville. As was to be expected the traffic was found to be heaviest at the city limits on all roads entering the city. The volume on the several roads, however, varied from 1,990 vehicles per day on one road where it enters the city to 375 vehicles per day on another. The classification of the vehicles was found to vary in a similar manner when observed at different points in the system. Automobiles varied from 81.5 to 40.6 per cent of the total traffic.

On the basis of the counts made it is estimated that the total daily vehicle mileage in the county is 99,260. The total traffic is estimated at 187,200 tonmiles.

In the agricultural communities from 90 to 95 per cent is local traffic; that is, between two towns close together or between the farms and the towns. We have only a very few roads where the tourist traffic or the interstate traffic will run as high as 40 per cent. There are one or two roads in Maryland where the interstate or foreign traffic runs as high as 40 per cent due to the fact that a very large outside population must be served by one line of road, Mr. LARSEN. There is one question I would like to bring out under the head of licenses for the operation of cars. It has occurred to me that there is a great deal of doubt as to whether there is an equitable division of the charges as compared with the use of the roads. For instance, is the gas consumption about equal on a 40-horsepower truck and a 40-horsepower pleasure vehicle? It occurs to me that probably the best thing to do would be to levy a tax upon

the gas consumption, if it could be properly divided in that way, because the man who has a 40-horsepower car might use it purely for pleasure and might only ride in it once a week.

Mr. MACDONALD. I believe thoroughly in a gas tax, but the gas tax in order to produce a very large revenue would have to be so high that I would question its being practicable to use the gas tax alone to carry the entire load.

Mr. LARSEN. Here is the point I was trying to bring out: Suppose a man has two cars of equal horsepower, licensed under the Georgia law. He uses one of them every day in the week and the other, perhaps, only one or two days in the week. As a matter of course, the wear and tear on the roads is from the use of the car and not from the power, and if the tax was levied on the gas consumed the man who continually used the road would pay a much larger tax, which he should do.

Mr. MACDONALD. If the gas tax was levied in lieu of all other taxes now, it would have to be so high that I doubt if the State legislatures or even the Federal Government would be willing to impose so high a tax as would be necessary; therefore, I believe we will have to use it as an auxiliary tax.

Mr. LARSEN. Have you any information you could give us that would show the difference in the gas consumption, for instance, of a 40-horsepower truck and a 40-horsepower pleasure vehicle? I am not talking now about the destruction of the roads. We would have to arrive at the gas consumption if we put it on

the basis of the gas consumed instead of on the vehicle itself.

Mr. ROBSION. The different makers of these cars will tell you how much gas a car will consume.

Mr. LARSEN. Yes; but they all put it as low as they can, and what I want is an impartial estimate.

Mr. MACDONALD. I think we could give you some estimates on that.

Mr. LARSEN. I would like for you to incorporate the statement about that in the record.

Mr. MACDONALD. Automobiles consume a gallon of gasoline in running from 8 to 20 mlies, depending upon the make. As to trucks, I am inserting a page from the report of the Postmaster General for the year 1921.

Government-owned motor vehicle service-Cost of operation per mile and per hour and miles per gallon of gasoline for the fiscal year 1921.