Now, I think this resolution which has now been agreed to in the United Nations is a further extension of the efforts we are making to discuss with the Russians and with other nations the possibilities of cooperation in the use of science and technology, rather than having the only thrust of these major new developments in the direction of weapons systems. I think that is the major significance of it. It is more a declaration of intention than it is a resolution with teeth. Senator SMITH. We are bound to it, are we not?

Mr. WEBB. Yes; we will vote for it. I believe we will state we intend to abide by it.

EFFECT OF U.N. AGREEMENTS ON NASA'S PROGRAMS

Senator SMITH. Mr. Chairman, you will recall that we have discussed in the past the international agreements that NASA has entered into. As a result of our discussion, NASA has submitted to our committee all such agreements with a status report on each. I would like to broaden the file to include those United Nations agreements which affect NASA's programs with an analysis from NASA in each instance as to the effect on our national space program.

Mr. WEBB. We would be happy to furnish this.

(The information referred to begins on p. 117.)

Mr. WEBB. Senator Smith, when you use the word "agreements, though, I think we must be clear. When I say we will abide by the terms of the resolution, it is, as I understand it, a matter of intention. It is not an agreement. It is a resolution, which is in essence a declaration of intention.

Senator SMITH. That is not the matter that is referred to in the paper this morning as the treaties being contemplated?

Mr. WEBB. Frankly, I have not had an opportunity to see what the papers have said this morning. We will cover that in our statement. If you wish more, Mr. Johnson is here.

Senator SMITH. No; I think it would be better-it is a rather involved subject and I think the record should have a complete statement which would be more comprehensive.

Mr. WEBB. Excuse me just one moment.

Senator Smith, I would like to add one thought which Mr. Johnson has mentioned to me. I believe that this Government has issued or will issue shortly some interpretive material. I think, in addition to what I have said, to be sure that this matter is kept in this proper perspective until we furnish information to the committee, I should point out that we do in this Government regard this as the latest and best clarification of existing international law in this field.

EFFECT OF COLLEGE CONSTRUCTION BILL ON NASA'S EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS

Senator SMITH. Well, I would suggest that you look over the transcript when you get it and make your statement accordingly.

Mr. Webb, the Congress is currently considering H.R. 6143, an act providing Federal assistance for the construction of college academic facilities. I would be interested, and I am sure the committee would, in having your views as to what, if any, impact this new law may have in assisting the objectives of NASA's facility, training and research grants program.

You may supply this for the record if you prefer to, rather than going into detail on it in the interest of time.

Mr. WEBB. I would prefer to give you a statement since this law is in the process of consideration. I would like to say this much today, Senator Smith: We, in preparing and carrying out our program, have looked at each case to develop the power of the university to serve the Nation's needs, and we have related our actions to the development of this power. Now, if the new act provides additional resources at universities, we will in no way duplicate those resources and we will rely on any other agencies of Government or governmental programs to develop the base. We will only add to the base where it is necessary to accomplish our purposes in line with Dr. Newell's statement. (The statement referred to is as follows:)

The higher educational facilities bill, if enacted, would provide $25 million for fiscal year 1964 and $60 million for each of the 2 successive years for the construction of graduate facilities. While this bill is not limited to scientific, engineering, and mathematics facilities, it is probable that at least some of the facilities constructed under this legislation would be in these categories and provide direct or indirect support to research in space sciences and technology if such research were going on at the university involved. However, NASA cannot afford to rely on such a generalized program. The NASA facilities program was initiated to support ongoing NASA research which we fear might deteriorate if the university research facilities involved were not made available.

The Office of Science and Technology states that in the fiscal years 1964 and 1965, all of the money spent in Federal programs, including the non-Federal matching funds, will not come close to meeting the President's Science Advisory Committee program target of $250 million in the fields of grants for educational facilities in engineering, mathematics, and the physical sciences.

We will, of course, take every step to see to it that there is no duplication. Dr. Smull will meet with Mr. Peter Muirhead of the Department of Education to exchange information. The proposed legislation would establish an Advisory Committee, and we are told it might be possible for NASA to have a representative on this Committee.

COORDINATION WITH OTHER FEDERAL AGENCIES

Senator SMITH. How does NASA fit its plans into the general picture of Federal grants? How do you coordinate your programs with programs of other Federal agencies?

Mr. WEBB. First of all, I do serve as a member of the Federal Council for Science and Technology, which Dr. Wiesner described yesterday. These matters are discussed there.

Second, we do discuss with the Bureau of the Budget, in connection with each budget submission, the relationship of our programs to others; and the Bureau of the Budget does give attention to this in connection with each budgetary preparation.

Third, we have a quite vigorous effort among the operating agencies to meet frequently at all levels and discuss the operating problems independent of the coordination problems, and to coordinate agency-to-agency where we can, instead of involving the whole governmental process of coordination. We do this on operating problems with the AEC, with the Department of Defense, and we coordinate through the Federal Council. We also do something of this kind in connection with education and our relationships to the educational institutions.

Before Dr. Haworth took over the directorship of the National Science Foundation, Dr. Waterman was the director. Dr. Waterman, Dr. Seaborg, the Commissioner of Education, Mr. Keppel, and I were meeting, sometimes as much as once a month to consider the total relationships of our programs. This, in addition to these other coordinating procedures that I have described.

Further, we have testified before a number of committees of Congress in association with the heads of the other agencies as to the programs put forward for consideration by those committees.

So we have had a quite careful effort to keep these programs together. But NASA itself has pushed forward, as we have described this morning, with the programs necessary to do our job in accordance with the 1958 act.

Dr. Newell has one addition, if you would permit him.
Senator SMITH. Yes, indeed.

Dr. NEWELL. I might add, Senator Smith, Dr. Smull and I meet periodically, about once every 2 months, with our counterparts in the National Science Foundation and the Atomic Energy Commission. In those meetings, we compared notes on our policies and plans for supporting facilities in universities and also compare notes on our research and training programs.

Senator SMITH. Would you include the Defense Department with the AEC and National Science Foundation?

Dr. NEWELL. We have not included the Defense Department in these periodic meetings, but we do keep in touch with them.

COORDINATION ON MATERIALS RESEARCH WITH DEFENSE DEPARTMENT

Mr. WEBB. Could I add one statement there, Senator Smith? In connection with the Department of Defense, the materials research problem is the most important common one to us in connection with the financing of university research. We are financing 2 materials research centers, the Department of Defense 12, the Atomic Energy Commission 2.

We are in close coordination in this very important field and these universities financed by the Government, are also in very close coordi

nation.

INTERNATIONAL EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS

Senator SMITH. Mr. Webb or Dr. Newell, whoever wants to answer, what is the nature and scope of educational projects carried on by NASA's Office of International Programs?

Dr. NEWELL. NASA's international program supports the training of people from other countries as part of our cooperative program. Now, this training may be carried out in our Centers by having participants in the program visit and stay at our centers for periods varying from a few days to perhaps as much as a year or more.

In addition, we have about 90 to 100 universities assisting in the training of people in this program.

In this training effort at the universities, the participant works on research in the space area. We provide the university with the funds to support the tuition of that trainee. We also provide the cost of travel of that trainee within the United States. The cooperating

country provides the subsistence, any salary or support of that sort, for the trainee and provides the travel expense to bring the trainee from his country to the United States and to take him back.

INDUSTRY WILL BE STRENGTHENED BY NASA'S PROGRAMS

Senator SMITH. We hear the criticism that too many scientists and engineers are being diverted into the space field. Do you think that NASA's solicited and unsolicited support of education will result in such diversion, or do you think the basic training and education is such that the results will be applicable to the nonspace field?

Mr. WEBB. On the contrary, Senator Smith, we are convinced that our program will not only add substantially to the scientific and technological base of the country in the universities, but as I mentioned in our statement, through a closer relationship with industry will lead to a general strengthening of the ability of industry throughout the country to take advantage of the latest advances, particularly in technology.

Now, the university program here is handled to strengthen the university, not only by requiring that the scholars who want to do the research be financed directly as in other cases, but that the university itself wishes this work done and undertakes an obligation to apply the resources of the university to it. That is, the multidisciplinary We are in no way bargaining with individual scholars to come and do a specific job for us, regardless of what the university may want.

resources.

Then we couple this with another important provision wherever facilities are granted, and we try to get the idea across even if no facilities are involved.

That very important provision is contained in a memorandum of understanding which indicates that the university will, in what we describe as an energetic and organized manner, work closely with industrial and other community leaders to determine the benefits of this research and the utilization of it to solve whatever problems may exist, whether it is unemployment in Pennsylvania or the development of a new welding process for an industry in Indiana. We intend that the universities work closely with industrial people and indeed, bring in men from industry to participate with them in this kind of research and find out how the benefit of this program can be applied in the area where the university, as we say in the agreement, normally has close relations. We do not ask them to look at some State 1,000 miles away, but we ask them to take a leadership position in determining how this multidisciplinary effort can be used in their own area, and particularly in conjunction with industry, to modernize its processes and avoid technological obsolescence.

So I think there will be a very substantial strengthening of American industry through this program, rather than a weakening. As I mentioned earlier to the chairman, the questions that he asked and others asked yesterday about personnel show that our personnel requirements are quite substantially less. These provisions and programs for university work actually add substantially to the total available in the Nation and upgrade the competence of many, who otherwise would not have an opportunity to go through this upgrading.

PARTICIPATION OF WOMEN IN NASA'S PROGRAMS

Senator SMITH. Mr. Webb, have you done anything to specifically encourage women to participate in the NASA program, offering opportunities for research?

Mr. WEBB. I think it is extremely important to note that we have what I think is perhaps one of the most active and interested and productive group of women in very advanced fields of research that any nation has anywhere.

There are some 200 of them in this program. They are doing very advanced work in mathematics, they are doing very advanced work in fields like astronomy, and we are asking the fullest participation of women as well as men on a completely nondiscriminatory basis.

We could give you a description of the activities of the women in our agency if you wished it.

Senator SMITH. I think it would be well for the record if we could have a more complete statement.

Mr. WEBB. The policy is to get the ablest person we can find, man

or woman.

Senator SMITH. Thank you very much, Mr. Webb, that is a statement well made, in my opinion.

(The statement referred to is as follows:)

As of November 30, 1963, there were on record 367 women throughout NASA occupying scientific and technical positions. Of this group, 88 are classified in engineering; 261 in aeronautical and space sciences; and 18 in the life sciences. In addition, 323 women occupy administrative and management type positions ranging from grade GS-5 to GS-14. The scientific and technical position grades range predominantly from GS-7 to GS-15 with one person occupying a NASA excepted position.

Since the Federal Woman's Award was established 3 years ago, NASA has submitted several nominations each year and for the past 2 years one of the winners was a NASA employee.

Dr. Nancy Roman earned the Federal Woman's Award in 1962 for "her high ability and strong leadership in developing a progressive national space program in astronomy and astrophysics."

In 1963, Miss Eleanor Pressly received the Federal Woman's Award "in recognition of her pioneer work in the development of sounding rockets for upper atmospheric research, and of her organizational and administrative ability in successfully managing the complex sounding rocket program of Goddard Space Flight Center."

We have submitted nominations for the 1964 award and are hopeful that again we will have one of our outstanding women recognized.

In February 1962, Mr. Webb issued a statement for distribution to all employees endorsing the provisions of Executive Order 10980, which established the President's Commission on the Status of Women.

In the area of training, our records show that during calendar year 1961-no current figures available 51 women employees throughout the Agency participated in courses of instruction involving scientific and technical subjects. For example, at one installation alone 19 women attended courses in advanced engineering mathematics and related higher mathematics courses (Langley Research Center). Other courses in which women participated included advanced nuclear physics, astrodynamics, and theory of servo mechanisms, to cite just a few.

Senator SMITH. I have several other questions, Mr. Chairman, but I shall now defer until someone else has an opportunity to ask questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Senator Young?
Senator YOUNG. I have no questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cannon?