Bureau of the Budget will approve the gross amount that we can use that is available from the Public Law 480 funds. The determination of how they can be used effectively for this purpose is essentially our responsibility within whatever limitation the Bureau of the Budget will make, and within the total availability.

I certainly concur with the chairman's view that this work should be approved, and approached cautiously and with full evaluation first of its benefits to American agriculture and with a view in mind of whether the research program which we are conducting will benefit American agriculture. We think we have imposed proper limitations within the funds available.

Senator YOUNG. Well, there is really no check on the itemized expenditures, like we have on our regular appropriations. You ask for a lump sum to be approved by the Bureau of the Budget.

Mr. PETERSON. The apportionment process would apply. We would have to justify the apportionment of whatever funds the Bureau of Budget approved, which we had indicated before this committee and the similar committee in the other body for its consideration as the amount for use for utilization research purposes. We do not contemplate we will expend funds beyond the amounts we are proposing for expenditure before this committee.

Senator YOUNG. I don't mean that at all. I don't think you will, either. However, supposing you conduct a research program in Germany? Who controls the item expenditures? Some foolish administrator might throw away a lot of money, or spend money for purposes which this committee or Congress itself wouldn't approve or even the Bureau of the Budget. What check is there to prevent such a thing?

Mr. PETERSON. The same check we have on our domestic research work now, Senator. Each project would be carefully reviewed, worked out, and documented, and would be subject to periodic review by supervisory people of our own, our own employees, and subject to review here in Washington, as all projects are subject to review.

Senator YOUNG. Does the Bureau of the Budget check your expenditures at all, item by item?

Mr. PETERSON. Not item by item. We do have examinations from the General Accounting Office, Bureau of the Budget, or our own audit staff, or people from committees of Congress. It is certainly intended to put sufficient restrictions on whatever we might enter into by way of contracts and grants, in this program, to see that the expenditures are within the framework of what we honestly believe will be valuable to the research program in returns to agriculture.

STATEMENT ON PROPOSED EXPENDITURES

Senator RUSSELL. Ordinarily, you have appeared before this committee, for example, and submitted a comprehensive statement, 100 pages at least of written testimony, which explains in detail how you are going to spend this money. In this case you have no ceiling of any kind except the total amount of funds that are available, and I certainly think you should at least submit to the committee a statement of the various projects that you are undertaking under an estimate of this size.

Mr. PETERSON. I certainly want to assure you that we are going to adhere, as closely as possible, to the procedures applicable to funds appropriated in the past, in dealing with these funds.

REPORT TO COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC LAW 480 RESEARCH

We will present to this committee whatever we might have as a result of the review that Dr. Hilbert is making in his tour of Europe. We would certainly want this committee and the Congress to know fully what we are doing with these funds, and what kinds of things we are doing, and those are the restrictions we will work under on them. We would be more than happy to make these procedures as comparable as we can to those governing our direct appropriations.

EXPENDITURES FOR EUROPEAN TRIP

Mr. YOUNG. Is Dr. Hilbert's trip now being made on United States dollars or counterpart funds?

Mr. PETERSON. On United States dollars, I believe.

Senator YOUNG. Why doesn't he use counterpart dollars, the same as Members of Congress?

Mr. PETERSON. It may be he uses some counterpart funds. He is going into countries where we do not have counterpart funds, as well as countries where we do have such funds, to make a survey of the whole situation. In the countries where there are counterpart funds available I assume he is using them.

Dr. CLARKSON. That is right.

Senator YOUNG. You do not necessarily have to have counterpart funds available; there are hundreds of places where they can be used. For instance, on my own trip, I had a ticket over and back. counterpart funds sure were used entirely in all the countries I traveled.

Our

Dr. CLARKSON. In Dr. Hilbert's case, counterpart funds were used to the fullest extent possible.

Senator YOUNG. I see. The reason I asked the question is that I think we should utilize these funds in lieu of dollars wherever we can.

Mr. PETERSON. I am certainly in accord with that. I understood he was making some contacts where counterpart funds would not be available. If he is using them, I stand corrected.

Dr. CLARKSON. I would like to suggest that in Dr. Hilbert we have a man having the qualities that are best calculated to give the Congress and the American people the fullest protection on these undertakings; that the projects will, in fact, be scientific in nature; that they will, in fact, contribute to our basic knowledge and understanding of the problems of utilization and marketing of farm products; and beyond that, as Mr. Peterson has already said, every undertaking will be thoroughly reviewed here in Washington, through our usual mechanisms, and will be subject to the apportionment and reporting processes of the Bureau of the Budget. We will, of course, make reports as we come before the committee for our annual review of the budget, and we are willing to make any other reports that the committee may suggest.

Senator YOUNG. Yes; I didn't mean to single out the Department of Agriculture in asking these questions. I was quite concerned recently about the expenditure of these funds by all departments of the Government, and I have been wondering if the Bureau of the Budget wasn't going to set up an accounting system for protection from that, and I think we have honest people in the Government, but if there is any dishonesty, there is a place where they could take advantage of a loosely run operation.

Dr. CLARKSON. Each undertaking will have a specified limit on the amount of funds.

USE OF COUNTERPART FUNDS

Senator YOUNG. It is my personal view that these counterpart funds represent American dollars, and I hope we will be as careful with those as with our American dollars.

Dr. CLARKSON. To carry that out, we will insist that we have opportunity for sufficient review of the records of the institution undertaking the work, so we can assure ourselves that the money is properly spent for the purposes at hand.

Mr. PETERSON. I might say further that I think our procedures should look to these funds just as we look to the dollars in these appropriations.

Senator RUSSELL. I appreciate that, Mr. Secretary, and I feel assured that you will always give it a businesslike handling.

IMPORTED FIRE ANT PROGRAM

Have you made any progress with the imported fire ant program that we authorized last year? Do you by any chance deal with that in detail in some of your statements?

Dr. CLARKSON. We don't deal with it in detail. We have put a a great deal of effort into the developmental work needed in each State and each county or locality in which this work is to be done. Beginning with the State authorities, the commissioners of Agriculture, we have sat down with them and planned the areas that needed attention first so as to prevent further spread, and then have gone into the problem with an overall advisory committee set up by the State authority involving in its makeup those who are interested in various phases of agriculture and in wildlife conservation and in public health. Then, with the benefit of their advice, the technical workers. of the State and of our Service have gone into the counties and parishes and worked there with the local people in an effort to have them set up a local managing group or advisory group that can consider the best means to proceed in that area with the information at hand.

We supply the technical information and we and the State supply a part of the funds and require that the local people provide a substantial portion of the funds.

This has taken a great deal of time. The actual eradication work has been begun in most of the States, but is just now beginning to get underway in volume. That volume will pick up very materially in the next few months.

STATE COOPERATION

Senator RUSSELL. Are you receiving any cooperation from the States in the form of funds?

Dr. CLARKSON. Very good cooperation, Senator. It is variable. Some of the States have to call on their forces that were assigned to other work and move them over to this work, because they did not have an opportunity to present this to their legislatures as yet. Then we are working with the counties and parishes to get local funds, county, parish, or owner funds, to come in to the whole undertaking. Senator RUSSELL. Had you considered using a similar program to eliminate other pests that are destroying things in the area where this ant is? Have you gone into this thing a little more fully than you generally do in setting up an organization even down to the local level?

Dr. CLARKSON. Well, this organization at the local level was necessary because of the necessity to apply the remedial measures to all kinds of land, that which is used for dwellings, that which is used for farms, that which is used for industrial use, and that which is used for conservation purposes. Since we are using insecticides necessarily strong, if great care is not used, there would be damage to wild life and to game and even to farm poultry. The organizational effort, this effort to bring in local people, is aimed in part at avoiding the problems that would arise through the unwise use of chemicals. Now we have areas where both the imported fire ant and the white fringe beetle exist.

Senator RUSSELL. That is what I had in mind, we have had a control program for a long time in this same area on this beetle.

WHITE FRINGE BEETLE PROBLEM

Dr. CLARKSON. With the white fringe beetle program we have been able over the years to cut down the area of heavy infestation rather materially. It takes twice as much materials as the imported fire ant. In the areas where both exist we would use the double amount so as to get rid of both pests, and there will still remain-I believe the figure is 150,000 acres infested with white fringe beetles that are outside of the fire ant infested areas.

We have encountered the problem of other ants in innumerable numbers in various sections of our country, some of which are annoying and some of which do considerable damage. In the areas in which they work, this effort will eliminate those pests, too, but we are not extending this program beyond the areas that are infested with the imported fire ant.

CARE IN USE OF INSECTICIDES

Senator RUSSELL. Now the chemicals, or whatever is used to destroy the imported fire ant, was that damaging to fish and wildlife and other farm animals?

Dr. CLARKSON. I think it is correct to say that we have no complaint of such damage following treatment of areas for the imported fire ant. We have a tremendous volume of apprehension expressed in correspondence and in press articles that the use of these chemicals may result in damage to fish and wildlife and even to the health of

some farm animals, but we realize that, too, and that if these chemicals are used indiscriminately and unwisely, they will cause such damage. But we also know that if used wisely, such damage to fish and wildlife can be reduced to a minimum which is entirely consistent with the aims and purposes of this program.

FUNDS FOR FIRE ANT PROGRAM

Senator ELLENDER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?

Have you been able to use all of the funds made available by the last appropriation?

Dr. CLARKSON. We have not as yet, Senator. It is our anticipation that we probably will by the end of this fiscal year, but it will depend upon the rapidity with which these things move in the local communities.

Senator ELLENDER. Has your money been divided so that you might be able to use more money in certain areas than in other areas? Dr. CLARKSON. Yes, sir.

Senator ELLENDER. Could you, under the act, have transferred moneys from one area where it was not being used to another area where it could be used?

Dr. CLARKSON. Yes, sir.

Senator ELLENDER. Did you follow that procedure?

Dr. CLARKSON. We have that flexibility and are following that procedure.

Senator ELLENDER. How much have you left over from this year's appropriation?

Dr. CLARKSON. I assume you mean from our 1958 appropriation I can't answer that right now, sir.

Senator ELLENDER. Will you supply it for the record?

Dr. CLARKSON. Yes, sir.

(The information referred to follows:)

The obligations for the fire-ant program in fiscal year 1958 are as follows:

1 It is estimated that all of $2,400,000 appropriated for the program in fiscal year 1958 will be obligated by June 30, 1958. The unobligated balance on Feb. 28, 1958, was $1,201,442.

AMOUNT REQUESTED

Senator ELLENDER. How much are you requesting?

Dr. CLARKSON. The same amount next year, which is $2,400,000. Senator ELLENDER. Do you think you will have enough?

Dr. CLARKSON. Yes; we think it will be enough for 1959. We need

a little more work on this before we can anticipate the rapidity with which it will increase.

Senator ELLENDER. Well, do you find the methods you are now using effective?

Dr. CLARKSON. They are effective; yes, sir.