The Secretary of the Interior has publicly expressed his determination to have the management of the Forest Service under his control. He knows that the word "conservation" is popular and that the public might naturally favor a governmental agency under that name. But, it has not been shown that this proposed Department would in any way improve the work now being done in conservation or make any savings of public money. As has been pointed out, this section of the bill carefully avoids placing upon the Secretary of the proposed Department any obligations as has been done in the case of other proposed Departments, and we cannot believe that the representatives of the people will entrust any Department with the conservation of the Nation's natural resources without some instruction written into the fundamental law creating that Department. On the conservation record of the present Department of the Interior we earnestly urge that section 402, pertaining to the creation of a Department of Conservation, be stricken from the bill.

The Massachusetts Forest and Park Association vigorously protests not only the possibility, inherent in this bill, of placing the Forest Service, the Soil Conservation Service, or the Biological Survey under the control of the Department of the Interior, but to the application of the term "Conservation" to the present Department of the Interior.

The CHAIRMAN. Is Dr. Woodward here this morning?

Dr. WOODWARD. Mr. Chairman, Dr. Cary will be the first to address you.

The CHAIRMAN. We will hear Dr. Cary then.

STATEMENT OF DR. EDWARD H. CARY, CHAIRMAN, LEGISLATIVE ACTIVITIES COMMITTEE, AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Cary, would you kindly give the stenographer your name and state the organization on behalf of which you appear? Dr. CARY. Edward H. Cary, Dallas, Tex., chairman of the legislative activities committee of the American Medical Association. The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed.

Dr. CARY. Mr. Chairman, we received your telegram, and we are very grateful to you for being permitted to come before you. As you know, we are deeply interested in the health and happiness of the people, and we believe the science of medicine can be developed best in the hands of medical men.

We believe, if there should be any change contemplated in regard to medicine and its correlation, other than the Army and Navy, it should be in a department with a medical man at its head.

In our interpretation of the bill we recognize that anything could happen to the Public Health Department that might seem desirable to the Executive; and while we are not at all afraid of the disruption of the Public Health Department, as medical men we are convinced that it will operate best if it is so planned, or so headed, that it will have the ready cooperation of the medical profession throughout the country.

The CHAIRMAN. Exactly what section is it, Doctor, that you have in mind which will affect the Public Health Service? May I ask if it Ï is the section with reference to the Department of Welfare?

Dr. CARY. Yes, sir; Department of Welfare and Conservation, and National Resources Planning Board.

The CHAIRMAN. The provision for the establishment of a new department, and the specific provision that the Secretary of Welfare shall promote public health, safety, and sanitation-is that it?

Dr. CARY. Yes, sir. We have before us also, at least, we have in hand the Brookings report, which has been made for the select committee, as I understand it, this committee.

The CHAIRMAN. No; it was made for another committee.

Dr. CARY. Then you will have to forgive me. We have the telegram from you stating it was a select committee, so we associated the two. But there have been several suggestions made, Mr. Chairman, as to just what would be done with Public Health.

The American Medical Association has gone on record, and I would like to submit here a couple of paragraphs which were passed by the board of trustees of the American Medical Association and referred to its house of delegates at the Atlantic City meeting, and which was then endorsed by the house of delegates, which expresses the attitude of the medical profession as regards this particular subject, entitled "Reorganization of Governmental Medical Activities." I might place this in the record and not trouble you to read it, if you desire it.

The CHAIRMAN. We would be happy to have you do so. (The paper referred to is as follows:)

[Extract from minutes of meeting of board of trustees, American Medical Association, Chicago, Jan. 8, 1937] REORGANIZATION OF GOVERNMENTAL MEDICAL ACTIVITIES

Recognizing that committees of the Senate and of the House of Representatives of the United States Government and a special committee appointed by the President are at this time concerning themselves with the reorganization of Government activities with a view to greater efficiency and economy, and recognizing also that the President, in his opening address to Congress, indicated that he would shortly present to the Congress recommendations for such reorganization of governmental activities in the executive branches, and recognizing moreover the great desirability that all activities of the Federal Government having to do with the promotion of health and the prevention of disease might with advantage be consolidated in one department and under one head, the board of trustees of the American Medical Association would recommend that such health activities as now exist be so consolidated in a single department which would not, however, be subservient to any charitable, conservatory, or other governmental interest. It has been repeatedly said that public-health work is the first problem of the State. It is the opinion of the board of trustees that health activities of the Government, except those concerned with the military establishments, should not be subservient to any other departmental interests. This reorganization and consolidation of medical departments need not, under present circumstances, involve any expansion or extension of governmental health activities, but should serve actually to consolidate and thus to eliminate such duplications as exist. It is also the view of the board of trustees that the supervision and direction of such medical or health department should be in the hands of a competently trained physician, experienced in executive administration. Adopted.

Dr. CARY. I would like to read just a part of it.

"This reorganization and consolidation of medical departments need not, under present circumstances, involve any expansion or extension of governmental health activities but should serve actually to consolidate and thus to eliminate such duplications as exist. It is also the view of the board of trustees that the supervision and direction of such medical or health department should be in the hands of a competently trained physician, experienced in executive administration."

The CHAIRMAN. This bill provides for the creation of a new depart

ment.

Dr. CARY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. While the President would have the power to transfer a bureau, it seems logical that if a new department were established that the Public Health Service should be transferred from

the Treasury, where, in my opinion, it never should have been, to this department, but it would not involve anything that would be antagonistic to the view expressed in this resolution. It would be my hope that it would offer greater opportunity for the Public Health Service in the Welfare Department.

Dr. CARY. We feel that might be true, Mr. Chairman, provided there was some definite control, or at least some definite group which would be in sympathy with public health, that would know all about public health, that would control the activities of public health.

The CHAIRMAN. We must all hope that the President will appoint only a physician, or someone who is in sympathy with the aims of the Public Health Service. To my mind, this would give the Public Health Service, in which Bureau I have been greatly interested through the years, improved Government machinery.

Dr. CARY. Mr. Chairman, there are many angles to this. For instance, there is the social-welfare side, the social-service side, the social business point of view, the social labor point of view, and the medical point of view, and the educational point of view, and, as I understand it, all of these are to be grouped, more or less; that is, the things that are related to medicine and related to these other groups would be under this appointee, who would be, supposedly, a Cabinet officer. Now we feel that the Cabinet officer might not have as broad a vision of this question of public health as he would have if he was clothed, possibly, with a more direct control of that.

We feel that this Department of Health is so big, it represents so much, as far as the public welfare is concerned, that it should stand on its own legs-that there should be a department of health. Now, if that is not contemplated by the Executive, or the committee, or the Senate, then we feel it would be very sound policy that someone, some group that would directly represent education, directly represent public health-that is, the medical profession, its view on public health-directly represent business, and industrial, and other groups of that type, which would all be social welfare, and the groups which would naturally be more or less correlated and associated, and public health would have some rather definite representation-that is, the medical profession-if its conception of what constitutes an active, progressive, and sound public-health policy would be properly represented.

We, as a profession, are deeply concerned in that public health will not be isolated and become simply a department of some social-welfare worker, with an attitude rather limited to that view, rather than the broader view which we have in mind.

We would like to see public health protected in that fashion. Primarily, we would like to see it, as I say, stand on its own feet, because it constitutes one of the great problems of government. Public health means very much to the people. Its ever-growing science of medicine is being utilized to prevent diseases, for the welfare of the public, and all that, and it stands out this day much stronger and with much more force than it did a long time ago, when it came through the Marine Department into the Treasury, and so on.

I agree with you that apparently it has no real reason for being in the Treasury Department. On the other hand, it is left to itself, if you will allow me to say so that it is able to carry on rather independently, even though coming through a department of that kind.

We are afraid it will, more or less, lose its identity, Mr. Chairman, and it will not have the strength and that strong position which it should have.

We also are very much interested in that Public Health shall not be placed at any point where it would come under political domination. We think medicine fares very much better if medical men remain more or less independent, can carry out its purposes, work out its destiny, and avoid the political possibilities.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, what do you mean by "political possibilities"? The Secretary of Public Welfare would be appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate. There would be no provision in this bill that would change in any way the appointment in regard to the Public Health Service.

Dr. CARY. We are thinking of the changes that might follow. It may be true that we are all afraid of something that might not be justified, Mr. Chairman, but, on the other hand, we feel like we are in duty bound to come here and express our fears, and so on.

Senator O'MAHONEY. What reason do you have for feeling that this bill, as it stands, would lead to any political domination of Public Health?

Dr. CARY. Well, I would not like to get into a discussion of just how we view labor today.

The CHAIRMAN. May I say, Doctor, you are misinformed about that. There is nothing in the specification of the functions of the Secretary of Welfare that has anything to do with labor, unless you construe one provision that way, the "relief of unemployment and the hardships and sufferings caused thereby", but certainly what you have in mind is not affected by this relief of unemployment, relief of hardship and suffering.

Dr. CARY. We are cooperative, Mr. Chairman, and want to cooperate. We do not want medicine to lose its identity. The Senator asked me the question as to why we feared it, and I will only allude to the fact that from what we read and what we apparently hear we are afraid sometimes that medicine might become involved in the struggle between the department heads, just as we find other groups become more or less disburbed.

Senator O'MAHONEY. You must understand, Doctor, that we prefer to legislate on facts rather than on fears.

Dr. CARY. Well, at the same time, Mr. Senator, if we did not express our feelings about this question, in all probability it would not arouse any interest on your part at all.

I would like to say that Dr. Woodward is the head of our legislative bureau, and I think it would be most desirable for Dr. Woodward to continue this. I do not want to take too much of your time.

I just want to say that the medical profession would like to see the Department of Health one that will stand on its own feet. If not, we would like to see the Department of Health so surrounded with those safeguards which would make it absolutely safe and sound, and make it possible for the medical profession to feel that this work of cooperation which we have always given to Public Health will be appreciated and go forward.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, let me tell you that we could not agree with you on establishing another Department of Health; but as to the

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latter part of the statement, you can rest assured that the members of this committee share your views with reference to public health. We will do everything we can to promote it. We certainly will not do anything to injure it.

Dr. CARY. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Woodward.

STATEMENT OF DR. WILLIAM C. WOODWARD, LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL FOR THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, CHICAGO

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Woodward, to what feature of the bill do you desire to address yourself?

Dr. WOODWARD. I want to speak particularly in reference to title IV, Departments of Welfare and Conservation and National Resources Planning Board.

Dr. Cary has outlined the general policies of the American Medical Association, and I shall endeavor to confine myself to the provisions of the bill itself. If we turn to section 401 (c), on page 34, lines 16 to 23, we find the following:

"The Secretary of Welfare shall promote the public health, safety, and sanitation; the protection of the consumer; the cause of education; the relief of unemployment and of the hardship and suffering caused thereby; the relief of the needy and distressed; the assistance of the aged; and the relief and vocational rehabilitation of the physically disabled; and in general shall coordinate and promote public health, education, and welfare activities."

I think the last phrase describes succinctly the proposed purposes of this new department, to "coordinate and promote public health, education, and welfare activities."

However, if we turn to subsection (b) of the same section, on page 34, lines 5 to 15, we find the following:

"There shall be in the Department of Welfare an Under Secretary of Welfare, who shall be appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, and two Assistant Secretaries of Welfare and a Solicitor, who shall be appointed by the Secretary of Welfare, all of whom shall exercise such functions as may be prescribed by the Secretary of Welfare or required by law. The Under Secretary and the Solicitor shall each receive a salary of $10,000 per annum, and the compensation of the Assistant Secretaries shall be fixed in accordance with the Classification Act of 1923, as amended."

In considering those two sections we have got to bear in mind an essential difference between the forces that have to do with public health and the forces that have to do with education, and the forces that have to do with welfare activities. The forces that have to do with public health represent practically a well-established, independent profession. When I say "an independent profession" I mean men and women who are earning their livings by their own efforts out in the community. In that way they are distinguished from men who are engaged in educational activities and men who are engaged in welfare activities, both of whom are essentially governmental groups and view their activities from an official standpoint. I will admit that there are many educators and many welfare workers who are not in the Government service, but that number is relatively small, as