Mr. GoFF. I believe the first I heard of that is when I came up here the other day and heard your statement.

Mr. MOLLOHAN. Then you didn't make that statement?

Mr. GOFF. No, I won't say that. But I mean about inquiring of the minority members. I don't remember anyone saying that to me. Now, maybe they did, because there was a lot of conversation back and forth. In my dealings I think we have got along very well.

Mr. MOLLOHAN. Who, in your opinion, do you think has the responsibility of directing, in the absence of a committee meeting, the activities of a committee? Who do you think would be responsible?

Mr. GOFF. Whoever you delegate to, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MOLLOHAN. The two are hardly compatible. What you said a while ago about having confidence in me and what you said now, are hardly compatible.

Mr. GOFF. Well, I went up to your office and talked to you and Mr. Johnson, and I got along fine. We had some telephone conversations, I think, with others. I thought this was a matter we had better proceed in with a good deal of caution.

Mr. MOLLOHAN. You have. Congratulations. You have done a wonderful job.

Mr. GOFF. Well, thank you very much.

Mr. MOLLOHAN. From the precautionary standpoint, at least. This all come down to this: What we want from Mr. Goff, Mr. Banton, Mr. O'Donoghue, or any other member you care to assign the responsibilities to, we want the results of these examinations we have requested and the data compiled. Can that be made available?

Mr. GoFF. If there is any such data, it will be made available. If there is any further material you want-you mean on the performance of the vehicles?

Mr. MOLLOHAN. That is exactly that. We would like to know.

Mr. GOFF. I think you are entitled to it. Do you know of anything further, Mr. Banton?

Mr. BANTON. I don't know how much of that was retained. There was quite a bit of-there must have been quite a bit of data taken by each of these individuals on the application of those vehicles to those routes, and some of it, after we had seen how they performed, we didn't consider it was too valuable. Because if you get a good result out of something, or a negative result there, I don't see any point in keeping a lot of records of success or failure.

Mr. MOLLOHAN. You must have had something, certainly, because this thing was current.

Mr. BANTON. That was current in 1954.

Mr. MOLLOHAN. By and large, you still had this experiment in progress?

Mr. BANTON. Well, the experiment is still in progress; that is, as far as the application of the vehicles to carrier routes-I don't know whether you would call it an experiment or not. But we are preparing to apply vehicles to as many carrier routes as is found practical.

Mr. MOLLOHAN. It must have been an experiment that is referred to as an implementation, you might say, of recommendations. It must have been important when we pay-I believe there is one suggestion here, one bill here, suggested as being the bill for the services performed by Heller Associates, which amounted to about $79,000? Mr. BANTON. Yes.

Mr. MOLLOHAN. If we pay Heller Associates for supervising this implementation or the investigation itself, certainly that would be important?

Mr. BANTON. Well, I think that is something of a matter of opinion. If you perform an experiment and the results are negative, I see no point in keeping a great mass of data to that effect, and if your results are positive, I see no point in keeping a lot of your detailed performance data.

Mr. MOLLOHAN. Mr. Banton, certainly I am not going to quarrel with you about this thing, because in the final analysis the only thing we are interested in is what data is in the Department that may be helpful to us. I want to be sure. If we have all that is available, we would be delighted.

Mr. BANTON. I don't know that you have everything available, but I am satisfied and positive we gave you everything that would be of any interest to you. I saw no point in giving you a lot of data and stuff to pore over that was just repetitive tests, and stuff like that. We have made an honest effort to give you everything that was-everything pertaining to this experiment that was requested by your staff here that we thought would be helpful to them.

Mr. MOLLOHAN. Now, Mr. Goff, would it be possible for you to say to us or have someone to say to us, that all of the information based on Mr. Banton's judgment, that he thought helpful, and he complied, was sent to us? Is there someone in your Department that could say that? Or was some taken out or deleted for some purpose or other? That is my concern at this point.

Mr. GoFF. It is my impression there was a lot of very much related material that I don't consider, Mr. Banton, felt, would be of any value to you

Mr. MOLLOHAN. The only thing I am interested in is what Mr. Banton did consider important and sent to you for that reason. I would think that you, as Solicitor, would not say to him this: Your judgment in this particular field is not good and they don't need this kind of material and would take it out.

Mr. GoFF. I certainly would not take that attitude. I think Mr. Banton will bear this out. Was not the word sent you from my office that you were to furnish them all the data you had?

Mr. BANTON. That is correct. Words to that effect. My Department had nothing to conceal, nothing to hide under the table.

Mr. GOFF. There would be no reason for us to keep it. As a matter of fact, I would not be in a position to tell what was really pertinent or what wasn't.

Mr. O'Donoghue, did you get any material that was really data on this experiment?

Mr. O'DONOGHUE. No. Only the material supplied in his concise statement what he said was wanted and some detail was eliminated. There might have been some change in a heading. There might have been a change in a word, purely a formal change, which did not affect the substance of the data.

Mr. GOFF. I do think there was some material we sent out on which we did change the heading and put it in a little more attractive form. Mr. O'DONOGHUE. I think that might have been and it might have been material supplied us, some graphs on which something was based,

but none of that was supplied us for for the purpose of sending to the committee.

We supplied the assembled data that Mr. Banton forwarded to us to be forwarded to the committee.

Mr. GOFF. And we will have one thing more. Weren't my instructions to you to get everything from Mr. Banton that applied to this and we would send it to the committee?

Mr. O'DONOGHUE. Yes.

Mr. MOLLOHAN. It was still necessary to keep it some time to check with you to send only the things that you, in your judgment, thought should be sent. You told him to send everything but you wanted to check before it came up?

Mr. PLAPINGER. Are you familiar with the type of vehicle covered by the procurement of the 2,000 vehicles in 1955?

Mr. BANTON. Yes.

Mr. PLAPINGER. As a result, presumably

Mr. BANTON. I am generally familiar with them.

Mr. PLAPINGER. Do you think that the high-torque advantage has been lost in these new vehicles?

Mr. BANTON. The what?

Mr. PLAPINGER. The high-torque advantage of the Twin Coach vehicles.

Mr. BANTON. I don't understand you.

Mr. PLAPINGER. In testimony before the committee in this last session, Mr. Gunther made some reference to the fact he thought the heavier vehicles had lost the high-torque advantage of the lighter vehicle.

Mr. BANTON. Well, that is probably a matter of opinion. Different people have

Mr. PLAPINGER. What is this high-torque advantage?

Mr. BANTON. I don't know.

Mr. GoFF. Well-Mr. Schlegel can answer.

Mr. PLAPINGER. Mr. Schlegel.

Mr. SCHLEGEL. Between the 2 vehicles there is a difference of only about 500 pounds. The vehicles we now have are Dodge 220-cubicinch vehicles and the Twin Coach has only 160 cubic inches. The vehicles we have now drive more like a passenger car, as evidenced by letters we have from carriers and others than the Twin Coach, which you people have under discussion.

Mr. PLAPINGER. Is that good or bad, Mr. Schlegel?

Mr. SCHLEGEL. Very good.

Mr. GOFF. Would you define "torque" for us?

Mr. SCHLEGEL. It is defined as power-to-weight ratio. I would not consider the Pony Express a high-torque vehicle, with a 4-cylinder, 160-cubic-inch engine in it.

Mr. PLAPINGER. Believe me, I didn't make the point. It was Mr. Gunther.

Mr. CHRISTENSEN. In your opinion, does the data you submitted establish that these were experimental vehicles so as to justify the negotiated purchase, as against the bid purchase?

Mr. BANTON. The data we submitted to you?

Mr. CHRISTENSEN. Yes.

Mr. BANTON. I think so; yes.

Mr. CHRISTENSEN. The reason I asked that question is that most of the data you submitted was taken from records kept in the ordinary course of business and it seemed that the trucks were assigned rather in the normal course of business, and we were not able to find, from the documents you submitted, that an experiment had been conducted. Mr. BANTON. Of course, the data that-most of the data that was available, on that experiment in Ohio there, pertained to the operation of those vehicles after they were procured and not before.

Mr. CHRISTENSEN. You do not experiment with a vehicle before you get it?

Mr. BANTON. What is that?

Mr. CHRISTENSEN. You don't experiment with a vehicle before you get it?

Mr. BANTON. Well, we could not experiment with those vehicles and determine whether or not we should buy 250 until we had them.

Mr. PLAPINGER. We can't argue with that at all, Mr. Banton.

Mr. GOFF. Now, Mr. Banton, let's go over that again. I don't believe I understand that one either.

Mr. BANTON. Well, Mr. Christensen asked me whether I thought that the data we submitted justified the purchase of 250 vehicles and I said I thought it did.

Mr. CHRISTENSEN. Oh, no; I said justified the "negotiated" purchase.

Mr. BANTON. Yes, and I said "Yes."

Mr. CHRISTENSEN. And the law allows a negotiated purchase where the vehicles are to be used experimentally?

Mr. BANTON. Yes.

Mr. CHRISTENSEN. Now, our request to the Post Office was for information to show us that an experiment had been conducted, and the reason we had so much trouble about the data was that on the basis of information you submitted, we questioned whether an experiment had been conducted.

Mr. BANTON. Well, we felt that those vehicles were a successful vehicle.

Mr. PLAPINGER. When did you feel that?

Mr. BANTON. We felt before we bought them it would be a successful vehicle and immediately after we put them in service there we realized we were right, see? And as time has continued, I think it vindicates our judgment.

Mr. CHRISTENSEN. On that theory, could not the purchase of any trucks be justified as experimental?

Mr. BANTON. No; I don't think it could. I think the conditions that surrounded this purchase amply justified the means which were taken to get them.

Mr. CHRISTENSEN. Perhaps that is true, but you have not been able to demonstrate that to this committee yet.

Mr. BANTON. Well, I am sorry we can't do it.

Mr. PLAPINGER. You have submitted cost data, and I think Mr. Christensen was trying to point out this is the kind of data you keep not only necessarily on an experiment, this is the kind of data you keep with respect to all trucks?

Mr. BANTON. That is right.

Mr. PLAPINGER. So that we were interested in the experimental part of the experiment, if you will, not just the cost data?

Mr. BANTON. Well, what more could we have kept, other than the routine costs, the normal costs to check every mile, which we did really justly during the early part of the experiment, because we had our fingers crossed. There were some things relatively new there.

Mr. PLAPINGER. There were extensions of route you were attempting to achieve. We were very much interested in that, but we never got any data on it.

Mr. BANTON. In the first place there, the hopscotch there was not a success, that part of it. However, we pretty conclusively demonstrated to ourselves that the use of a vehicle there on city delivery routes, where the houses are spaced properly, is an asset both to the carrier and the Post Office Department.

If the houses are 75 to 100 feet apart there, a carrier will deliver 15 percent more mail and do it a great deal easier than if he has to hoof it around there.

Mr. PLAPINGER. I understand that. But I understand also you learned that from your experiments in Florida?

Mr. BANTON. I still have to keep harping on the fact the experiments in Florida were

Mr. PLAPINGER. Test runs?

Mr. BANTON. Laboratory experiments. We had to conform it in actual practice.

Mr. PLAPINGER. I can appreciate that and I think the committee can appreciate that. And one of the things that bothered us again is the data that Mr. O'Donoghue refers to, that on some 10 pages of data that indicate that on March 1, 1955, only 25 of these trucks were being used experimentally.

Mr. MOLLOHAN. What date?

Mr. PLAPINGER. March 1.

Mr. BANTON. They were classed as experimental vehicles there. We normally try to get anything experimental into the hands of the regular vehicle department for assignment, and so forth.

And another thing you don't understand, and it is conceivably why you don't, there is a great deal of work involved in assigning vehicles to delivery routes. You cannot just go into a place and pick out one route and put a vehicle on it. You cannot do it. It isn't practical. You have to saturate a station or a locality with your vehicles, and you have got to have vehicles to do it with.

And it has been only outside of that first 250 that were pretty much scattered around and used on the hopscotch and other experiments, such as on the use of a single carrier and on mounted routes, and so forth, that it has only been since this last procurement of 2,000 that we have had any vehicles to work with.

Mr. CHRISTENSEN. Are the 2,000 any less experimental than the first 250?

Mr. BANTON. I should think they are greatly less experimental. In the first place you have a standard engine and chassis there of Fargo. Mr. CHRISTENSEN. You cannot actually compare the Fargo vehicle with the Twin Coach?

Mr. BANTON. I would not say so, no. The Twin Coach was an assembled vehicle to demonstrate whether a lightweight, short wheelbase, maneuverable vehicle was practical to use. I think there is one thing that indicates the good judgment in that experiment, which was while we paid $600 or $700 more for each of those vehicles, these 2,000