The CHAIRMAN. That is right. Mr. BATES. Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Bates. Mr. BATES. I don't know what the legal technicality involved in this particular proposition might be, but if it is a question of deposit, I should think that somebody should give some consideration--it is not, you say? General MYERS. Sir, as has been explained to me-I am not a lawyer, but I deal with the Corps of Engineers who have the legal talent, sir. They explained to me that they must deposit what is required by the court and in order for them to file a condemnation suit the Government must have the funds on hand. They must show that they have the funds to satisfy a condemnation suit, sir. Mr. BATES. Then you can do that on a leased basis, as well, with the option to buy? General MYERS. We can lease, sir. Mr. BATES. It seems to me we ought to have some sort of revolving fund. If this thing is going to cost you $3 million just because of lack of funds at a particular time, a revolving fund would probably be the answer to it. The CHAIRMAN. The only safeguard we have-and that isn't much safeguard-that the Department has is to come back in here again. and tell this committee about all of this land. We will either say whether we think we are being gouged or being held up, and we will try to pass on it again. I venture to say there will be more condemnation proceedings than have been in a long time, because they are not going to be able to negotiate. Then when you condemn, the local jury always, invariably rules against the Government in favor of the person at home. Mr. BATES. That is the reason The CHAIRMAN. You have all those things. So when you have to have anything, you have to pay a high price if there is much demand for it. Mr. BATES. Mr. Chairman, that is the reason I made that point. Now I would like to get the comment from the general as regards a revolving fund and see whether that is the solution to the problem. General MYERS. Sir, I personally think that has a great deal of merit. Mr. BATES. I want you to give some thought to it. The CHAIRMAN. That is right. Mr. GAVIN. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question? Mr. JOHNSON. Everything that has happened has come about because they didn't file a suit. Mr. GAVIN. Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Gavin. Mr. GAVIN. Do the property owners retain the mineral rights, or do we? General MYERS. That, of course, is for determination in each case. Mr. GAVIN. Well, a determination in each case. Now wait a minute. Suppose we acquire the property and suddenly there is a field discovered in the immediate area and they want to move in with a lot of drilling rigs and derricks on the property that you might be trying to use as an air base. I just wondered what consideration has been given to that particular phase of the situation, whether you are going to acquire the mineral rights in the purchase of the property, or whether the property owners are going to sell you the land and still retain the valuable parts in the mineral rights. General MYERS. I think, Mr. Gavin, that you understand in all cases where valuable mineral rights exist and are known to exist, the court would not cede us those mineral rights in acquisition. The CHAIRMAN. All right. We got all the information about Muroc. Without objection, we approve $31,441,000. Now the next is Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. We had two or three different hearings on different phases of it. The total amount is $45 million, of which $15,011,000 is for some other command. Seven million is for another command, including the engineering battalion. Now, I want to say this, Mr. Secretary: While I am not going to raise much objection about this engineering battalion-I think it is highly necessary for you to have it-I can't see why you can't do all of the recruiting yourself and establish your own engineering battalion from the very beginning without going through the Army, unless it is that you are not qualified or set up to give them the training. If you can give them the training, why then you just as well take them yourself and train them. But if you can train them better with the Corps of Engineers or the Army engineer facilities, it would be all right. This is a Seabee for the Air Force. You have to have them. We must have them abroad in every place. But the only question that has worried me a little bit was how you got them. The Air Force is a separate, independent organization. I don't see why you shouldn't recruit all your people for your own service that is necessary, without borrowing them from the Army. Because they are charged against you and not the Army. Now one question: Have you the have, you ought to do it yourself. (Discussion off the record.) facilities to train them? If you If not, let the Army train them. The CHAIRMAN. About $23 million of the $45 million at Eglin Field goes for other commands. How much of the $45,549,000 is for research, development and facilities? General PUTT. $22,649,000. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, that breaks it down and that is the way it is set up-22 what? General PUTT. $22,649,000. The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, the committee approves that item. Now take your next one Mr. SHORT. Except, Mr. Chairman General PUTT. Mr. Chairman, in view of the discussion on hand, under Eglin Air Force Base, item L-7, on page F-15, where it says armament test. (Discussion off the record.) Mr. SHORT. But, Mr. Chairman, right at that point. Now the one big argument-let's not lose sight of the forest because of the treesfor unification was to cut expenses, wasn't it? You don't know about that as well as we do. The one big argument for unification was that we were going to cut expenses. I am wondering if the Army could train these fellows of course, the Air Force was a part of the Army in World War II. Now, we separated them. Instead of saving money, we are really spending more money. I don't hesitate to say here that Mr. Cole, to my left, was the one man who had the insight or foresight and the intestinal fortitude and courage to oppose us on this. The chairman and myself, we fought for unification in the hope of cutting expenses. But we are not cutting expenses. We are adding to expenses. We are getting a separate division in all of these agencies, which is adding to our expense. Some day Mr. Cole is going to throw that back in our teeth on the floor of the House and I am going to blush, as well as the chairman, I hope. He hasn't lost his capacity to blush a little. And your testimony right here has given great weight to his argument. The CHAIRMAN. Well, of course Mr. HARDY. I think he is exactly right, Mr. Chairman. Mr. SHORT. Well, I mean it. Glad that we have a Virginian over here agreeing with us. The CHAIRMAN. Our colleague is hitting the nail on the head all down the line. He would make the thing more forcible if I tell him some things. Mr. COLE. Mr. Chairman, let the record indicate that Mr. Cole was not the only member of this committee who opposed that. The CHAIRMAN. That is right. Without objection-now let's go on. What What page is this? General PUTT. Alamogordo, sir. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Without objection, $6,147,000 for that base. Mr. ELSTON. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question about this. Alamogordo is where they fired the first atomic bomb. Now if you are going to have any more explosions of this character, I don't see how you do it on 5,919 acres. General PUTT. This Alamogordo was the closest city to site of the first bomb explosion, but space is big out there and this particular base is not near where the site of the first bomb was. Mr. ELSTON. That is what I wanted to ask you. Then in addition to this base, you have a big testing ground somewhere nearby? General PUTT. Well, that is, the Atomic Energy Commission has. Mr. ELSTON. Is that under the Commission? General PUTT. That is correct. We do not have that. The CHAIRMAN. All right, take your next item: Albuquerque, N. Mex., $8,540,000. Without objection, we approve that item. The next one is the headquarters, research, in Baltimore, Md., $5,771,000. Without objection, we approve that item. The next is various locations: research, development, and test facilities, $7,000,000. Now tell us about that. Mr. RIVERS. Where is that? Mr. ELSTON. On what page? We passed about 10 pages here. Mr. JOHNSON. We passed some of them. How about the Patrick Air Force Base? The CHAIRMAN. Well, the general made such a magnificent presentation, telling the whole background and all of this, that it just merely a breakdown of the fine presentation in his opening statement, that I didn't think Mr. GAVIN. You missed item No. 30, Mr. Chairman, Patrick Air Force Base, at Cocoa, Fla. General PUTT. We are requesting no authorization for Patrick Air Force Base. The CHAIRMAN. I am reading the bill. Now what is the various. locations: Research, development, and facilities, $7,000,000? General MYERS. That is another one of those deficiency items, sir, that we would like to cover all at one time. The CHAIRMAN. Now, we are going to talk about that a good deal tomorrow. Now we have too many, in both the Army and the Navy, little windfalls. We have to have a bill as much specifically as we can. We are going to give leeway on certain things as we did in the Army and did in the Navy where facilities might be destroyed or burned down. But just a blanket authorization to go out and do certain things General MYERS. Mr. Chairman, this is a deficiency item to supply additional authorization due to increased cost over our second supplemental bill. We have, as you know, sir, several items here which I would like to cover after we finish. The CHAIRMAN. Then, this $7,000,000 is just the beginning of what the increased cost of these bills is going to be? This is to comply with some bill we already passed. General MYERS. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Where we set the money out. General MYERS. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And you found out the increased cost has run it up. It is just seven million now? I certainly hope it won't be more than $7 million. General MYERS. No, sir; it is more than that, sir. I would like to explain that later, if I may, or at this time take the whole item, sir. The CHAIRMAN. All right, explain that later. Mr. COLE. Mr. Chairman, I think we ought to have some information about this headquarters command item. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Mr. COLE. Which I understand is a new site and new activity to be located in Baltimore. Mr. KILDAY. Where does it say Baltimore? The CHAIRMAN. He said on the map yonder Baltimore. Mr. PRICE. In the bill it says Baltimore. General PUTT. It is Mr. COLE. It is a new site and new activity, isn't it? General PUTT. That is right. Mr. COLE. Where is it being done now? General PUTT. Where is it being done? Presently it is a command that is being formed and organized and is in the position of practically having no home. At the moment, we have some leased space in downtown Baltimore, which your chairman approved our getting, and it is only adequate as a very interim, temporary quarters, until we can establish a command headquarters for them. This will be a permanent command organization within the Air Force and there are the people who will actually control the field operations of all of these test and development centers. Mr. COLE. Is all of this activity going to be located on the land you are going to acquire? General PUTT. That is correct; yes-that is correct. Mr. COLE. You are going to put up a barracks and office building and library and mess and so forth? General PUTT. That is correct. Mr. COLE. Has the site been chosen? General PUTT. There is a site survey board looking at several— well, at many sites now, and we actually have quite a number of offers of free land for the location of this headquarters. Mr. COLE. Well, then, why do you put in an item land you are going to get free? * for the General PUTT. At the time this book was prepared, sir, we did not know what the land situation was going to be. Mr. COLE. If you are sure enough of the situation now to know that the land is going to be donated, you don't have any objection to striking out this amount for land? General PUTT. We do not know for certain. Mr. COLE. You had several offers made of areas that apparently are suitable. General PUTT. Well, these are under negotiation and we certainly are not going to spend any money, if we don't have to, for land. Mr. COLE. Very well. Then I will move to strike out the item for land. The CHAIRMAN. How much is the item in the bill? (Discussion off the record.) Mr. PRICE. You don't have any absolute guaranty you are going to get the land. The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes, we will get it. General PUTT. No, sir; we don't have a grant. The CHAIRMAN. How much less was it? (Discussion off the record.) Mr. PRICE. Mr. Chairman, they don't have any guaranty they are going to get the land donated. Mr. COLE. The General has said they have had several offers of land without cost to the Government. Now I assume that those offers were of land on which the Air Force had indicated acceptability. General PUTT. No, I don't think we would say that we had indicated acceptability. The CHAIRMAN. Well, we are in this position. If you can't get the land, we are still in session here and you can get an authorization to get the land. Go over there and try to get the land. How much is that amount, Mr. Cole? Mr. SASSCER. Mr. Chairman General PUTT. Mr. Chairman, we have to have authority to acquire this land. Mr. COLE. You have it in the legislation. Mr. SHORT. Did they say they were going to give this land to you? Mr. COLE. That is right. Mr. SHORT. Did they tell you they were going to give this land to you, to get this valuable base? Did they say they were going to give it to you? General PUTT. They didn't tell me this personally, Mr. Short. General PUTT. To the site-selection board, who is working on it. |