your intention to accept the appointment to be Executive Secretary of the Council or to remain in active service as an astronaut until a successful shot has been attained?

Colonel ANDERS. We, of course, have been operating on a successoriented philosophy, but it is my view that, if the Apollo 11 flight does not fulfill its lunar landing goal, that I will still my plans are to still come to the National Aeronautics and Space Council. Senator HOLLAND. Thank you, sir. Senator YOUNG. Senator Goldwater.

EFFECT OF MOL CANCELLATION ON NASA MANNED PROGRAM

Senator GOLDWATER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It is a real pleasure to have you here today, Colonel Anders. I speak not only as a member of this committee but as an Air Force person and an American citizen. We are very proud of you for what you have done.

I remember, Mr. Chairman, with a great deal of pleasure, having spent a full day with Colonel Anders at NASA in Houston. He put up with my stupid questions and even took me into the command module simulator and demonstrated to me what they had to put up with in space decisions in the operation of the vehicle. It was most impressive and I would suggest to any members of the committee who have not availed themselves of a day or two at NASA's Manned Spacecraft Center headquarters that they do this so they can actually experience at lot of the things that these fine men go through.

Before I ask two short questions, I would like to comment on Senator Hatfield's observations about the possibilities of space and getting along with other people. This has been something I have admired in Senator Smith for a long time. I think she was the first in the Senate that I have heard to suggest that this might be a way of opening the door between the Soviets and ourselves. Always, as you know, when people get together who fly or who have been in astronautical programs, there is a great opening of minds and hearts, and once we can do this, I think we can get along.

Now, the question, Colonel. Last week the Department of Defense canceled the MOL program. In your view, how will this action affect the manned space program of NÅSA?

Colonel ANDERS. I personally was disappointed that this had come to pass. Of course, it is not my responsibility to weigh the value of MOL against all the other competing programs that the Air Force surely has that I am not aware of. I always looked upon MOL as an important and significant development in determining what man can do in space, in this case in a military capacity. My initial reaction was that without a MOL program, then certainly there were areas of interest, increased areas of interest, in the Department of Defense with respect to our Apollo applications program and the space station program. I am sure that I would feel that a joint effort is something that would be in order.

Senator GOLDWATER. I share your apprehension about the dropping of the MOL program, too. I think it was said first around 1917 that the country that rules the air will rule the world and I think we can say today with safety that the country that rules space is going to rule the Earth, and if we do drop the MOL program, and we have nothing

going along to take its place, I am convinced that the Soviets not only have the ability but in all probability have accomplished this. I think we may well live to see the day when this could be considered one of the most disastrous decisions ever made by this or any other govern

ment.

In view of your feeling, do you think it would be possible or useful to transfer the Department of Defense astronauts to NASA?

Colonel ANDERS. Well, certainly it would be possible, I suppose. I suspect it would be useful because they do have well developed backgrounds in their particular areas of capability. So, I guess my answer to you would be yes, Senator.

May I add a comment to your comment? Though the MOL program was a personal disappointment to me, as I said, I have no basis upon which to analyze why that decision was made, but I would say that I would think it would be a serious mistake to not have any near earth orbital space program. I think that this is an area where we can learn a lot that will be of real benefit to mankind, will be useful in a military sense, be useful in the sense of having people learn how to live with each other.

Senator GOLDWATER. When we were briefed on the budget earlier this year, it was obvious that at best there was a very minimum amount in for the MOL program. My feeling then was if we cannot do better than this we had better get out of it. We have been dragging our heels on this program as long as I can remember. We have been promised year after year that it would come about in a year or two. I think if we could have accomplished this many years ago and had it out of our way, it would be of benefit

Mr. Chairman, I have no other questions of Colonel Anders. I look forward with a great deal of pleasure to voting for him and I look forward to the opportunity of serving with him in this space effort in the future.

Senator YOUNG. Senator Cannon.

VIEWS REGARDING NUCLEAR ROCKET ENGINE

Senator CANNON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Colonel Anders, I, too, want to congratulate you and join in wishing you well in this new assignment. You have done a tremendous job in the past and we are certainly very proud of you.

I also want to join with Senator Goldwater in his views with respect to the MOL program. It seems to me that it is very ill advised to cancel out the MOL program, particularly by the same people who are advocating an ABM system because of their fear of Russian intentions toward us, and I can hardly find sense in the two actions that seem to me to be diametrically opposed, one suggesting an ABM system because we are fearful of an attack from Russia, and at the same time canceling out the MOL system which would give us a very great capability-if we were indeed fearful of an attack from Russia-for near space activities that might have some tremendous advantage

to us.

And so I want to join with Senator Goldwater completely in his remarks and also in your remarks when you say that you believe that we should have some type of a near-earth space program going.

In view of your background in nuclear engineering, would you care to give us your views regarding the NERVA, the nuclear rocket engine development program?

Colonel ANDERS. Frankly, I have always been impressed with the NERVA concept. I think that that is the only way we will be able to do space flight past, say, the orbit of the moon, out to the planets. One of the things that certainly is under consideration at this time is a possible planetary exploration, manned and/or unmanned. In either case an efficient, powerful engine like NERVA certainly would be an advantage. Unfortunately, the NERVA concept is one that requires is a very, if I may use the word loosely, technical one. It is one that requires quite a bit of R. & D. and leadtimes and, therefore, one that I would think would be appropriate to work on at this time in at least some capacity, not necessarily having a future mission specifically in mind.

Senator CANNON. I might say the most recent test conducted last week was most successful. It was the first test conducted with the engine firing down instead of up into the atmosphere and the test ran a considerable period of time at full power and has been very, very successful. With one or two minor exceptions, all of the recent tests have certainly proved out very, very well and as you say, the leadtimes involved here are such that it would be very difficult to make this development until we have a specific mission assigned to the engine, because the missions can come up rather rapidly, certainly much more rapidly than the technical development or R. & D. development can take place. Is that a correct statement?

Colonel ANDERS. Yes. I put NERVA in the exploratory development.

DISCUSSION ON MILITARY SERVICE RESIGNATION

Senator CANNON. Now, one further point. In resigning your commission in the service, is there anything in the law-let us say you fulfill the term in your proposed position as Executive Secretary of the Space Council. Is there any opportunity then for you to go back into the military service?

Colonel ÅNDERS. Let me say that the details of how one resigns from the military are not completely clear to me at this time. I have never given this a minute's thought until this position was presented to me. And I have asked people that I know in the Air Force personnel how you go about it. It seems-let me just say that I understand the position of the law in this case and I understand, it was made quite clear to me, the intent of why one should be a civilian in this job and that was acceptable by me even though it was a rather significant step to give up 14 years of background in the military, having been essentially born in the military, educated and trained there.

Let me say that I am not completely familiar with the situation in that area. I would like to maintain some contact with the military in the form of inactive reserve or whatever would be acceptable, I think, mainly to this committee. The details of this, sir, are not very clear to

me.

Senator CANNON. I do not know what the legal situation is, but I think it would be most unfortunate if you were not permitted to maintain some contact with the military or, in the alternative, if when

you completed your assignment as Secretary to the Space Council, if you were not permitted to go back into the military.

What is your total service, 14 years?

Colonel ANDERS. Yes, sir.

Senator CANNON. You have 14 years toward retirement which is a very substantial investment, a very substantial value that you would be giving up if that were not permitted. I do recall on some other occasions when a military man has been eligible for 20-year retirement, that has been a situation where he could retire and then go into the reserves and keep contact with the military in that fashion. I am not familiar with what the legal situation is here but I certainly hope that it is such that you will be able to keep up your contacts with the military and that you would not lose the investment of the years you put in it.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That is all I have.

Senator YOUNG. Senator Saxbe?

Senator SAXBE. I think the whole country has been impressed by Colonel Anders and his companions, not just on the Apollo 8 but subsequent flights, and it has been a very refreshing thing and I am delighted that he has chosen to accept this position.

I support it wholeheartedly and believe it is for the best interests of the country and certainly a continuing example of these fine men. Senator YOUNG. The meeting is adjourned.

cleared and the committee will then sit in executive session.

(Whereupon, at 11:35 a.m., the committee went into executive session, after which the open session was resumed at 11:40 a.m.)

COLONEL ANDERS' NOMINATION APPROVED

Senator YOUNG. Colonel, and all those present, the Chair announces that the committee has unanimously approved your nomination to be Executive Secretary of the National Aeronautics and Space Council. It will be, therefore, reported to the Senate with the recommendation that you be confirmed.

Colonel ANDERS. Thank you very much.

Senator YOUNG. The meeting is adjourned.

(Whereupon, at 11:41 a.m., the committee was adjourned.)