The problem here is that we know how to operate space. We know we are in the forefront of a rapidly advancing technology. We know that the people of the world seem instinctively to understand what the United States has done in its space program for all mankind.

It is by no means equally clear what we would do with this same money if we applied it in the other areas that people who, in my mind, have not really thought it through, clamor for us to spend our really modest space budget on. I hope that the Nation will decide to continue to move ahead vigorously in space. I think it has given the Nation a great lift.

I think it has returned economic value, I think it has returned other values to the Nation, outside the monetary stream. I would certainly hope that the Nation and the Congress would wish in the next decade and into the 80's to push forward.

DISCUSSION ON PRIORITY OF FUNDS

Senator HATFIELD. I appreciate Dr. Paine's very eloquent comment and I would not disagree except on one point. That is that I do not mean to imply that money is going to cure all of our social ills in itself, but I only can say when people lump all of the total Apollo program together and they come up with the figure of $24 billion, then they realize that we have certain areas in which we cannot meet our commitments. Our housing program, set last year by Congress at 2.6 million units a year, is over a million under this year's quota for the new housing starts that we should have. We are told by the Bonneville Power Administration of the Pacific Northwest that we face a power shortage by 1973. They cannot even renew contracts with the direct users which produce one-third of the Nation's aluminum, 100 percent of the Nation's nickel. Also, when we are told we cannot find sufficient funds just to meet basic educational needs of many of our people-Headstart and other programs when we do not have sufficient funds to utilize the type of medical services to meet people's health needs or provide health needs for our people they still see this $24 billion figure total. People think this money possibly could be used to alleviate these other human needs.

There are other political realities here that we consider in this room, and justify our economics through all sorts of sophisticated dialog and rationale. When you are talking to people who are living in the ghetto and when there is alienation within student groups and a black and white militancy heading to disruption-and I personally think we are already in a revolution in this country-the space program and its exploits are almost irrelevant to those individuals who are living in that kind of environment with their immediate needs not being met. We at this table have to deal with these people in the matter of allocating our national resources and our balance of resources and expenditures.

All I am saying, as I have said many times before, is that I do not think there is sufficient communication to impress enough people at this point that what we are doing in space is worthy of the continued level of expenditures. I think the euphoria of landing men on the moon is going to fade. I admit it is one of the most magnificent things I have ever witnessed. I think you all are to be commended. But we still have to deal with these political realities.

Dr. PAINE. I think we are, and this is really the basic problem we have before us. But Senator, I just can't accept the model that some people have that the United States, the wealthiest Nation in the world, the Nation that has the greatest capability that mankind has ever assembled, can't afford the really modest expenditures. To compare, a decade of costs, in this time, we have spent a half trillion in Asian wars, we have spent a half trillion dollars on our welfare programs. The Department of Health, Education, and Welfare is doing some fine work and I am a great supporter. Their budget is more than 10 times the size of NASA's. If we took the entire NASA expenditure and added it on to the HEW budget, it would make relatively small difference.

I think NASA has indeed served the very people who make this statement well, as a spur to show what this Nation can accomplish once it is aroused and puts together competent people under sound leadership and adequate resources to accomplish its ends.

I think if we indeed cripple the space program with the idea that this will help us move ahead on other fronts, it will have the contrary effect. I think that the Nation will indeed become even more doubtful of its ability to carry out its responsibilities.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Holland.

COST OF ONGOING SPACE PROGRAMS

Senator HOLLAND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I think before we try to decide where we are going with reference to later programs, we ought to know what the cost is going to be of the ongoing programs which we will continue. My understanding is that we have nine Saturn V's either completed or under construction and that you plan to use at least five of them in the continuation of the Apollo effort, because you spoke of possibly concluding the Apollo effort with Apollo 16, if I understood you correctly. Is that the situation?

Dr. MUELLER. Senator Holland, all I said is we would be expected to continue the present program through Apollo 20.

Senator HOLLAND. That means you intend to use all nine Saturn V's?

Dr. MUELLER. We intend to use nine more Saturn V's in the Apollo program.

Senator HOLLAND. Over what period of time will that operate and what will be the expense of that?

Dr. MUELLER. We expect to complete those nine Apollo flights by late 1972 or early 1973. The amount of money-we forecast some time ago that it will cost us about $24 billion to complete all of the hardware and conduct the next several landings. We have, however, included in this program plan the extension of the capabilities of the Apollo spacecraft which will run that slightly more than $24 billion. Senator HOLLAND. In other words, you expect the continuation of the Apollo program to conclusion to cost $24 billion?

Dr. MUELLER. A little bit more than that. I would say that as of the first of July this year, we have spent $21.1 billion on the Apollo program, so that something like $3 billion is required to complete the

Dr. MUELLER. $3 billion to completion over 3 years. Senator HOLLAND. $3 billion over the 3 years that you plan to continue the Apollo program?

Dr. MUELLER. That is right.

Senator HOLLAND. That is a billion dollars a year?

Dr. MUELLER. Roughly, although it goes down, of course, as you go downstream.

Senator HOLLAND. In the Apollo applications program, I understand you have nine Saturn I-B's either completed, or in the process of completion, in that the Apollo applications program, is that correct? Dr. MUELLER. That is correct. We have seven completed and two more first stages essentially completed.

Senator HOLLAND. What is the period of time that you intend to operate that program and what will be the cost?

Dr. MUELLER. We expect to finish that by the end of fiscal 1973 if our present schedule holds. Our present cost estimates on the basis that you are familiar with is, I believe, $2 billion or a little more than that.

Senator HOLLAND. $2 billion?

Dr. MUELLER. About $1,800 million, a little less than $2 billion. Senator HOLLAND. During the next 3 years, you plan to spend on these two programs something like $4 billion to $5 billion?

Dr. MUELLER. That is correct.

Senator HOLLAND. Now, what are the other programs costing that you are going to have to continue under your present planning, such as the weather program and a research program, and the communications program?

Dr. PAINE. Perhaps the best way to answer this would be to discuss the total NASA budget if we run out the present programs.

Senator HOLLAND. I am trying to get at various components so we may have a clearer detailed view. What is the present plan over these 3 years that you have been talking about to spend on the three types of operations that I mentioned? That is, the communications, the weather, and the research facilities?

Mr. LILLY. I do not have those numbers with me in terms of those specifics. Let me talk in total for a moment.

Let me assume for the moment that the 1970 budget as presented to you, President Nixon's budget, is approved and those programs go forward at the rate he has proposed in fiscal 1970. To continue those programs, the runout costs of those would run in fiscal 1971 right at $4 billion. It then starts tailing off to about-my recollection is about 3.5 and goes down very rapidly.

Senator HOLLAND. What about 1973? That is the last

Mr. LILLY. It would be in the neighborhood of about $2.7 to $3 billion.

Senator HOLLAND. Let us say $3 billion. Then over the next 3 years that follow 1970, your present plans would call for the appropriation and expenditure of something like $1012 billion.

Mr. LILLY. That is correct, if there were no new starts after fiscal year 1970.

Senator HOLLAND. Then you plan, in addition, to have these orbiter and lander shots for the Mars mission, which, over the same period of time, would cost about $700 million?

Mr. LILLY. Those numbers are included in the figures I gave you. Senator HOLLAND. The $700 million is included?

Mr. LILLY. Yes, sir.

Senator HOLLAND. The question, therefore, is whether we should commit ourselves to programs beyond the two Mariner shots that you say are already included, two unmanned Mariner shots to Mars, already included?

Mr. LILLY. They are included in those numbers that I gave you, just as the numbers that Dr. Mueller gave are included in those numbers; yes, sir.

Senator HOLLAND. Now, all of us are thoroughly conversant with the fact that Senator Hatfield's point has much in it, yet some of us are sold at least I am much more sold-on the value of retaining this program within reasonable bounds, because I do think it contributes in many ways to the solving of all our national problems.

What I would like to have, Mr. Chairman, is an estimate of what the manned shots to the planets will cost not only during these 3 years after 1970, but in the years that follow. I say this because I am unwilling to make a blind commitment, much as I approve the program, to any additional very expensive long-term program without knowing what we are doing.

I think that is really the thing we are all trying to get at, Mr. Chairman. I hope it is, because I believe we want to know where we are stepping before we step out with additional programs that we are not committed to.

I want to ask one more question: Does the completion of the development of the NERVA lie within the $10 billion figures you have given?

Mr. LILLY. The NERVA engine development is included within that number. The NERVA development would not be completed by 1973, however.

Senator HOLLAND. It would be completed by 1975, as I understand; is that correct?

Mr. LILLY. NO. The program would reach flight status in the 1977 time period.

Senator HOLLAND. What is the additional expenditure that will be expected from this agency in those 2 additional years?

Mr. LILLY. On the NERVA program?

Senator HOLLAND. On the NERVA.

Mr. LILLY. Senator Holland, I would have to furnish that to you. I do not have it with me.

(The information referred to follows:)

The estimated NASA funding required for the NERVA engine development project for FY 1974 and FY 1975 totals $60 million.

Senator HOLLAND. Thank you.

Mr. LILLY. Senator Holland, I might just comment in terms of what the total would cost, in terms of these new starts along with the ongoing programs you have talked about. One approach to it, as Dr. Mueller pointed out, with a preliminary estimate would be that it would require something slightly over $4 billion for the first couple of years, rising then to a level somewhere in the range of $6 billion to $7 billion to $8 billion a year. That would be one approach for those programs presented by Dr. von Braun and Dr. Mueller.

Senator HOLLAND. Was I correct in my understanding of all that testimony that if we plan to go ahead with what is now being suggested and what has been discussed this morning, we would have to make a commitment to it in the 1971 budget, the budget that follows the one now being considered?

Dr. PAINE. If the very hypothetical program that Dr. von Braun described were to go forward, we would not have to make a decision on a manned Mars landing until 1974.

Senator HOLLAND. What decision would have to be made in 1971? Dr. PAINE. The 1971 decisions would be to continue the NERVA project along the lines that we have submitted in the 1970 budget and to proceed with the space shuttle and space station. We would develop them in such a way that they would support a Mars mission, but be useful for many other applications. In my view, this is a somewhat premature date.

Senator HOLLAND. Then that space station is not included in the Apollo Applications?

Dr. PAINE. No, the Apollo Applications is a precursor to the space station that is not included.

Senator HOLLAND. It is a smaller space station?

Dr. PAINE. Yes.

Senator HOLLAND. That is included in the current program?
Dr. PAINE. Yes.

Senator HOLLAND. Why is it that you are not particularly interested in landing on Venus?

Dr. PAINE. There are two reasons. One is that the temperature of the surface around the places where we have measured is between 700 and 900 degrees Fahrenheit. If that were not bad enough, the surface pressure is something like 100 times the atmospheric pressure on Earth. It is about equivalent to a 2,000-foot depth in the ocean. So the surface of Venus seems to be a very inhospitable place.

Senator HOLLAND. In other words, Mars is the place you think is most probable for human exploration?

Dr. PAINE. Yes, Mars would be the first, if that decision were made to go to the nearest planet.

Senator HOLLAND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

STATEMENT BY SENATOR SMITH

Senator SMITH. Mr. Chairman, I have a policy meeting I have to go to. In the interest of your time and mine and that of these gentlemen, I have a brief statement to make and some questions to be included in the record and to be answered for the record.

The CHAIRMAN. That will be done.

Senator SMITH. Dr. Paine, it is a pleasure to see you again. As this is the first committee meeting since the thrilling lunar landing, I would like to join the chairman and in fact the rest of the world in congratulating you and all your colleagues at NASA for a job very well done.

But, what have you all at NASA been up to lately? It has been a full 15 days since NASA landed two men on the Moon for all the world to see and it has been at least a week since NASA returned close-up pictures of the planet Mars for our television viewing. Now that you have accomplished the near impossible, are you content to rest on your laurels?