A. Yes.

Q. And did the name of Silvia Givens appear on that payroll? A. Yes, sir.

Mr. O'CONNOR. I would like for this payroll to be admitted in the record as Gray exhibit 3.

(The above-referred to document was marked "Gray Exhibit 3" and received in evidence.)

By Mr. O'CONNOR :

Q. Now, have you extended your audit beyond the original September 30 cutoff date?

A. Yes; we have in certain respects. We picked up the three vouchers that I mentioned before that have come in for payment now, and also we have posted some more tickets that we have gotten in from the airlines subsequent to the last report.

Mr. O'CONNOR. I don't think I have any further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HAYS. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HAYS. Mr. Dickinson has a question.

Mr. DICKINSON. I think for the record most of us know, but I would appreciate it if you would clear up the significance of a claimed per diem. What different procedure is needed and if a different statement is needed when one claims for per diem rather than just the travel?

The WITNESS. Well, any traveler, generally any traveler who is traveling on official business may present a claim for subsistence for

that travel.

Mr. O'CONNOR. Out-of-pocket expenses such as taxes?

The WITNESS. That is right; general expenses, taxi, telephone calls and so forth.

Now, he can also claim on his voucher any travel expenses that he incurred, if he bought a ticket through his out of his own pocket he could reclaim that on the voucher. If he traveled by airline credit card, his travel does not normally-reference to his travel or ticket number doesn't normally appear on his expense voucher.

Mr. DICKINSON. My point, Mr. Gray, is that you and I are familiar with it, I think, but for the record what is the significance of whether or not per diem is claimed?

The WITNESS. Well

Mr. DICKINSON. Do you understand what I am asking?

The WITNESS. I think I understand.

Any official travel that was performed, normally there would be a per diem or an expense voucher filed for that travel.

Mr. DICKINSON. Is there some further statement or sworn statement that a person has to make if they claim expenses other than they would have to if they had simply an airline ticket?

Mr. O'CONNOR. Mr. Dickinson, I think that will be developed by the witness Julian Langston when he appears this afternoon, as to procedures and the requirements. If we could hold that

Mr. DICKINSON. All right.

Mr. O'CONNOR. Because he is the one that does the auditing of the vouchers.