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with that card would—the traveler would be noted, but I just assumed that, I don't know.

Q. You didn't know they were using your name in connection with the travel?

A. No, I did not. I have never seen an airline bill that came to the committee, I don't handle that, so I didn't know that my, that others traveled, I didn't know who traveled. I assumed it was Odell Clark who traveled.

Q. Have you been cognizant of a practice among the committee staff of purchasing airline tickets in other people's name for their own travel or for the travel of someone else?

A. No. I have been under the impression that the only people who had airline tickets other than the chairman and the subcommittee chairman were Mrs. Dargans, the chief clerk, Chuck Stone, the special assistant, and myself. And that these airline credit cards held by the chief clerk, Mr. Stone and myself were used by staff members whenever they traveled at the instruction of the chairman.

Q. Whenever you instructed a staff member to travel or approved his travel on committee business?

A. I never instructed anyone to travel, or approved it. I only allowed the ticket to be used when I was directed to give another staff my ticket to purchase airline tickets.

Q. May I ask whether or not an authorization was signed by you whenever your ticket was being used before the ticket was purchased?

A. No, it was not. .
Mr. O'CONNOR. I have no further questions.
Mr. Hays. Mr. Waggonner?

Mr. WAGGONNER. Yes, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Derrickson, you have stated earlier that on occasion you did make loan of the credit card in your name to Mr. Clark.

The WITNESS. That is right. Mr. WAGGONNER. Was this a frequent occurrence or was it an infrequent one. Could you estimate the number of occasions in the 89th Congress that this might have occurred?

The WITNESS. I would say it was from time to time. I would estimate that it might have been 10 or 20 times. I do not recall.

Mr. WAGGONNER. No further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. O'CONNOR. Was this card you had a “Q” card that anybody could use?

The WJTNESS. Yes, sir, it was a “Q” card.

Mr. Hays. Just a minute, now. I am not sure that statement ought to stand in the record. The person to whom a “Q” card is issued can use it to buy tickets for anyone. I am not sure how loose or how strict the airline is that anybody can use a “Q” card in somebody else's name. I think sometimes the airlines make the person identify themselves. Sometimes they do not. That is what I have heard. So in this case, however, they did use your “Q” card?

The WITNESS. They used my “Q” card.

Mr. Hays. The airline obviously required no identification from them?

The WITNESS. Obviously.
Mr. O'CONNOR. His name was signed to the ticket.

Mr. O'Cowhave not seen there appeared somewh when these cards

The WITNESS. It was my impression always that when these cards are used that the traveler's name appeared somewhere, but I did not know and I have not seen the airline bills. Mr. O'CONNOR. I have no further questions. Mr. Hays. Mr. Nedzi? Mr. NEDZI. I have no questions.

Mr. Hays. Are there any further questions? If not, thank you, Mr. Derrickson, you are excused.

(Witness excused.) Mr. TAYLER. Mr. Chairman, at this point in the record I would offer the deposition of Michael Schwartz to be inserted in the record at this point. Mr. Hays. Without objection, it is so ordered. (The deposition follows:)

DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL SCHWARTZ [Given on the 16th day of December 1966 in H-329, U.S. Capitol, before C. William Tayler, special counsel to the Committee on House Administration, and Irene D. Stolman, notary public for the District of Columbia:]

Q. Will you state your full name for the record?
A. Michael Schwartz.
Q. What is your address?
A. 618 H Street, S.W., Apartment 204, Washington, D.C.
Q. What is your occupation?
A. A counsel for the Committee on Education and Labor.
Q. Where are you admitted to practice law, Mr. Schwartz?
A. State of Florida.
Q. And when were you admitted there?

Late in 1964.
2. What is your present employment?

A. Associate counsel for Labor Management for the Committee on Education and Labor.

Q. How long have you been so employed?
A. Approximately 242 years.
Q. What was your previous employment?
A. Student.

Q. In connection with the performance of your duties as counsel to the Committee on Education and Labor, were you required to make trips outside Metropolitan Washington area?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. How frequently did you make such trips during the 89th Congress?

A. The frequency varied: Sometimes I would make trips almost back-toback. Other times, I would be in the Washington office for long periods of time without making any trips.

Q. At whose direction or instruction did you make such trips during the 89th Congress?

A. At the direction of the Members of the Committee on Education and Labor and its Chairman.

Q. Would you describe briefly the nature of the duties you performed while traveling for the Committee?

A. Usually, I would go into a city with one or more investigators to interview people connected with the poverty program in that city and also to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of that program.

Q. Was it regular practice on your part to file a report of the results of your trip after making each trip?

A. Yes, it was customary to file a report at the conclusion of a trip.
Q. To whom were these reports directed?
A. To the Chairman of Education and Labor Committee.
Q. Did you travel by air in every case where you made a trip?
A. To the best of my recollection I always travel by air.

Q. Are you now or were you at any time during the 89th Congress the holder of an air line credit card?

A. No sir.
Q. Describe the procedure you followed to obtain your air line tickets.
A. I would contact the Chief Clerk of the Education and Labor Committee.
Q. Would you identify her by name?
A. Maxienne Dargans.
Mr. TAYLER. Go ahead and finish your answer.

A. Usually by written memoranda and request a ticket to the various cities that I was assigned to investigate.

Q. After you made that request for a ticket, how would you receive the ticket?

A. The Chief Clerk would notify me that my ticket was ready. I woud then pick up the ticket and sign for it. To the best of my recollection I always signed for the ticket.

Q. In each instance, when you traveled by air, did the ticket bear your name as the traveler?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then I take it that you never traveled on an air line ticket bearing another person's name as the traveler?

A. No, sir.
Q. For each official trip that you made, did you submit an expense voucher?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you always prepare your vouchers yourself?

A. I always informed a secretary what I wanted typed on the voucher. She then typed it and I reviewed it before having it sent to the Chief Clerk for processing.

Q. The G.A.0. audit of travel by staff members of your Committee indicates that a ticket on National Air Lines was used by a Mike Schwartz to travel from Washington, D.C. to Miami on July 1, 1965 and return to D.C. on July 13, 1965. Do you have any recollection of making that trip?

A. I have no recollection nor do any of my records show that I was out of the Washington office from July 1 through July 13, 1965.

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Q. I now hand you an air line ticket, coupons number 1 and number 2, which have been marked “Witness Schwartz Exhibit No. 1(a) and 1(b)” for identification, and ask you if you can identify that ticket as a ticket you personally used to make the travel indicated thereon?

A. No sir, I do no recognize this ticket as being used for any travel which I

Q. Did you make a trip to Miami from Washington and return on the dates I have indicated?

A. No, sir, not on the dates you have indicated.

Q. Then I take it your answer is that you have no recollection of using that ticket which is marked “Witness Schwartz Exhibit 1(a) and 1(b)” for identification?

A. No, sir, I do not.

Q. Did you at my request yesterday search your files for evidence of making this trip to Miami?

A. Yes.
Q. Were you able to find any evidence that you had made the trip?
A. No.

Q. Did you submit an expense voucher for a trip to Miami on the dates previously indicated?

A. I have no records of having submitted any such voucher.

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Q. Mr. Schwartz, I now hand you what is marked as “Witness Schwartz Exhibit Number 2” for identification, being an Eastern Air Line ticket reflecting travel between Washington, D.C. and New York City on the shuttle on June 6. 1965 bearing the passenger name M. Schwartz and ask you if you can identify that ticket as having been used by you on the date indicated for the trip indicated?

A. I cannot remember having used this ticket to travel to New York.

Q. Did you make a trip to New York on that date?
A. I don't think so.
Q. That is, you have no recollection of it?
A. No, I have no recollection.

Q. If you had made a trip to New York on that date, would you have submitted an expense voucher for the trip?

A. Yes.

Q. Thc G.A.O. audit indicates that no expense voucher was submitted by you for that trip. Have you found anything in your records to show that you made such a trip?

A. No, I was unable to find anything in my records which would indicate that I made such a trip.

Q. I take it from your previous testimony that in each instance where you made an official trip you submitted an expense voucher?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you account for the fact that this ticket shows travel to New York by M. Schwartz and you submitted no expense voucher for any trip to New York at that time?

A. No, I cannot.

Q. Do you have any knowledge or any belief that any air line ticket was purchased in your name and used by some one else?

A. No, I have no such knowledge nor belief.

Q. Have you ever obtained an air line ticket in your name which you turned over to another person?

A. No, I did not.

Q. I now hand you a document marked “Witness Schwartz Exhibit Number 3” for identification, being an expense voucher specifically No. 8859, and ask you if you can identify it?

A. Yes, sir, I can identify this voucher.

Q. Will you also examine the attached papers. Are those attached papers the supporting expense records?

A. Yes, they appear to be.
Q. Did you submit that voucher for reimbursement for expenses listed thereon?
A. Yes, I did.

Q. What are the dates for which you claimed per diem on that voucher and the place where you incurred the expense?

A. The dates are Junc 2 through Junc 18, and the place is Miami, Florida.
Q. Can you state the year in which you made that travel?
A. Yes, 1966.
Q. How do you cstablish that since it is not shown on the face of the voucher?

A. The receipt for the automobile which I rented during that period shows the date in which the car will be returned.

Q. Did you make the trip to Miami for which you claimed reimbursement in this voucher?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And were you there for the period of June 2 through June 18 on Committee business?

A. Yes, I was.
Q. How did you travel to and from Miami?
A. I traveled by plane.

Q. Do you recall the name of the air line on which you traveled from Washington to Miami?

A. No, but I would assume it had to be either Eastern Airlines or National Airlines.

Q. Would your answer be the same for the name of the air line on which you made the return trip?

A. Yes, as I believe those are the only two air lines which run from Washington to Miami and back.

Q. Can you describe the nature of the Committee business you transacted in Miami during that period?

A. Yes, I investigated the question of discrimination in apprenticeship training programs.

Q. Who, if anyone, accompanied you to Miami at that time?
A. I made the trip by myself.

Q. Was any other Committee staff member with you while you performed your duties in Miami during that period?

A. No.

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