And in that connection you have already testified that this one ticket which you were showed, marked "Dargans No. 2," was not your handwriting?

The WITNESS. That was not my handwriting.

Mr. HAYS. Therefore you did not make the trip in the shuttle? The WITNESS. It was not my handwriting.

Mr. HAYS. In order to get a shuttle ticket, it has to be gotten on the plane and somebody has to sign it?

The WITNESS. Yes, that is right.

Mr. HAYS. So would you say that you didn't make that trip?

The WITNESS. I wouldn't say that. I would say that is not my handwriting.

Mr. HAYS. That would be pretty conclusive evidence that you didn't make the trip then, because if you had you would have signed it yourself.

The WITNESS. I know, but

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. All your various trips to New York, of what duration would they be?

A. Well, many would be just for 1 day, many would be for the weekend, many would be for 2 days perhaps, and so forth.

Mr. HAYS. Could we go back to this New York thing again. In addition to the fact that you have testified that isn't your signature, you have also testified that on that particular day you were on the west coast.

The WITNESS. I was on the west coast.

Mr. HAYS. So you could pretty surely say, then, you didn't make the trip.

The WITNESS. I reckon you could. I was on the west coast, I remember being on the west coast, I remember it almost day by day, so I could not have made the trip.

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. Here is the duplicate of voucher No. 8045-is that the number? A. No, but with regard to these tickets, as a matter of practicewell, I remember on some occasions having signed a request. I don't know what it was called.

Mr. HAYS. T-4?

The WITNESS. Some record which would authorize me to-authorize the ticket to be issued.

By Mr. O'Connor:

Q. I think what is of concern to us mainly, Mr. Anderson, is the apparent inconsistency in claiming subsistence. You didn't maintain a residence or an apartment in New York, did you?

A. Well, I had friends there and relatives. My brother is in New York. But I never remember having gone there and not claimed subsistence, but it could have happened.

Q. Taxis and travel to and from the airport, they are all legitimate

expenses.

A. Yes.

Q. The only thing we are endeavoring to clear up is whether or not you recall making any trip to New York and not claiming subsistence.

A. As a matter of habit, frankly, it mystifies me that 14 were made. For instance, I am not an independently wealthy person but I could have I am rather absentminded, I could have made a trip and not claimed subsistence, of course. I would have felt very bad about it when I found out, but it couldn't have been 14.

Q. Not 14. Six. Six trips.

A. Six trips, without claiming subsistence?

Q. Yes.

A. Well, your audit says it was 14.

Mr. DICKINSON. Total of 14.

Mr. HAYS. Fourteen trips all together in which you claimed no subsistence, not necessarily to New York, but to New York and/or other places. And you think it is unlikely that there could have been that many?

The WITNESS. Yes.

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. For instance this trip to Tallahassee, Fla., there is no subsistence voucher on that. Our audit is incomplete because we have not been able to verify the dates on it to this time, but there is an airline ticket, and it is among those, District of Columbia-Atlanta, Atlanta-Tallahassee, Tallahassee-Atlanta, Atlanta-District of Colum

bia.

And the trip was started on April 23, 1965. And we don't have the date that it terminated.

Mr. HAYS. Do you ever recall going to Tallahassee, Fla.?
The WITNESS. Yes, I do.

Mr. HAYS. You did go there?

The WITNESS. Yes. Well, that trip was made.

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. You recall the occasion for it, the reason?

A. Oh, yes. It was to look into it was a request partly of Florida A. & M. College to look into the possibilities of a poverty program there.

Mr. HAYS. Did anyone go with you on that trip?

The WITNESS. No.

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. You went down by yourself?

A. Yes; I did.

Q. Do you recall it was of any particular duration, 1, 2, 3 days? A. I don't remember the length of time. Well, it could have-I think it was of short duration.

Q. I think you are right, because apparently the airline ticket. office shows that it was used on April 22, which was your date out of Washington, and used April 23, Atlanta. But then there is no return apparently indicated. But these are bookkeeping problems that we have encountered all through this inquiry in connection with some of these airline tickets.

A. Well, let me say with regard to the

Q. But it seems that you would have

A. No; on that occasion I wouldn't have made claim for subsistence because my family home is Tallahassee, Fla.

Q. Oh, is it?

A. And I would have stayed with my parents and would have been happy to have gone on that occasion. But it was a legitimate trip. I addressed the Florida A. & M. College, as a matter of fact, and I did look into the poverty program there with Edwin Norwood. was the chief man there. I spent most of I spent most of my time on my office duties. But that trip was made.

Q. Did you stay over a couple of days with your family?

A. I think I stayed 2 days; yes.

He

Q. Well, that probably accounts for the reason no per diem was claimed, no subsistence.

A. Yes.

Mr. HAYS. Mr. Anderson, you have apparently been a very cooperative witness and I think it is fair to point out to you that on at least one occasion we have developed so far that your name was used on a ticket without your knowledge. It was without your knowledge. The WITNESS. Apparently it was.

Mr. HAYS. Did you ever know that this practice was going on in that committee, buying tickets with somebody else's name on them? The WITNESS. I didn't know this; no.

Mr. HAYS. When was the first time you ever became aware of it? The WITNESS. When-well, you heard it rumored about after this investigation opened, but these things-and that is when I began to think about them, think about instances in which they might have occurred, trying to piece together in my mind what sorts of procedures we might have had which would allow this sort of thing to happen.

By Mr. O'Connor:

Q. Was it done-were you aware of it while you were employed by the committee that this was being done?

A. I was not; no.

Q. Do you ever recall authorizing anyone to purchase airline tickets in your name, that you were not going to use?

A. No; I don't remember ever having done so.

Q. I notice that after you got back from your Tallahassee trip, almost immediately you went to New York, on April 25, returning to Washington on the 27th; you went up on a Sunday and Tuesday, no per diem was claimed on that. Could you recall that?

A. I don't remember it, but it would have escaped my notice not to have claimed per diem on a trip of that official nature.

Q. Well, could it have been that this was a continuation of your trip from Tallahassee?

A. No; it couldn't have; no.

Q. Six trips during this period without claiming subsistence, you have explained the one to Tallahassee but these six New York trips give us some concern.

A. Well, I don't understand them, really.

Q. You don't?

A. I really don't.

Q. Are those two vouchers marked? They haven't? There is the receipt on that one voucher that accompanied it and all it is is for the Would you look at the receipt.

same amount.

A. Oh, yes.

Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to how the ticket was obtained?

A. Yes. Well, no, it doesn't. But this-this must have been paid for by me, but I won't say for sure, because this clears up a mystery, in any case, because this was my precise schedule.

Q. That was your precise schedule?

A. Yes.

Q. The bill is made to you. Do you see your name up there?

A. Yes. By whom would it have been made?

Mr. HAYS. Well, there is a travel agency involved. Do you know that travel agency?

The WITNESS. Oh, yes, I do remember it now; yes.

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. What do you recall about it?

A. Let me collect it in my mind, because I think I can piece this

out.

Q. Maybe it would help you if we said that Congresswoman Mink and Congressman

A. Yes, this is exactly what happened.

Q. Purchased at the same place apparently.

A. Yes. I will tell you who made these purchases. Juanita-I have forgotten her last name-in Congressman Augustus Hawkins' office, made these purchases for the three of us; and it was under the special arrangements which we were under-I don't remember why we bought it this way. Perhaps it was because we were getting it for these other Congressmen. And I don't recall why we decided to do this, but I do remember it did happen, that we purchased the tickets through an agency. Now, I don't remember where the money came from.

Mr. NEDZI. It could have been charged?
The WITNESS. Pardon?

Mr. NEDZI. It could have been charged. The WITNESS. But I do remember now. about this

By Mr. O'Connor:

Juanita will tell you

Q. Do you recall writing the check for that amount of money among your personal funds?

A. I don't remember this.

Mr. HAYS. Would it be possible—it may be common practice that this was charged

The WITNESS. This one; no.

Mr. HAYS. Could it have been possible that when you got the check for that amount, you endorsed it over to this travel agency? The WITNESS. Well, I don't remember that.

Mr. HAYS. Well, apparently Mrs. Mink and Mr. Hawkins were taken care of in exactly the same way.

The WITNESS. Yes, that is right.

Mr. HAYS. Now, I imagine the travel agency got paid one way or another.

Mr. NEDZI. It might have been paid directly to them.

The WITNESS. But I will tell you who did all the arrangements for this. Since I was the staffman for these trips on the west coast, I was told to-because we had a great deal to do with the Elementary and Secondary Education Act on the floor-to get Juanita in Congress

man Augustus Hawkins' office to make these arrangements. She will remember this, because she is the one who selected this agency, you see. And as to how it was paid for, I don't remember. She may, you see. Mr. O'CONNOR. Yes.

The WINESS. But if I had this sort of thing in my files I would have remembered it, but I didn't.

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. Well, is there any question in your mind about being reimbursed twice for this; in other words, somebody else paying for the ticket and you making claim for the $355?

A. I couldn't have been reimbursed twice, no.

Q. You weren't?

A. No.

Q. Well, that is the subject of the inquiry there.

A. Oh, I see. No, I wouldn't have been. And I would have remembered receiving that large an amount of money.

Mr. O'CONNOR. Yes. I have no further questions.
Mr. HAYS. Mr. Waggonner? Mr. Dickinson?

Mr. DICKINSON. Well, on this one item-you think it is likely that through Congressman Hawkins' office that all three of these were charged and you told them that you would put in a voucher and when the check came to you, you just endorsed it to the airline travel agency and you would have no record of it?

The WITNESS. I don't remember the transaction, but I do remember this much: that she arranged everything. I may have signed it but I don't remember explicitly doing so. However, if I did, that agency will most likely have the check in their files.

Mr. DICKINSON. Let me suggest this: Mrs. Mink and Mr. Hawkins are both on your Education and Labor Committee?

The WITNESS. Yes, sir, they were. They are.

Mr. DICKINSON. Would you see if you can find out, go back through your records or

The WITNESS. I wouldn't have them in my records.

Mr. DICKINSON. You don't have anything on this?

The WITNESS. My records aren't that well kept. I never dreamed

this thing would come about. But they will be well kept in the future.

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. If you were paid by personal check you would have your canceled check, would you not?

A. I would have my canceled check, yes.

Q. Would you check your canceled checks for that period. What is the date of the travel?

Mr. GRAY. March 26 through 31.

The WITNESS. Yes.

By Mr. O'Connor:

Q. And if you do have a canceled check, if you would let us know so we could get a Xeroxed copy of it put in the record to clear this item. A. All right.

Mr. HAYS. Could it be possible, would this refresh your memory any, Mr. Anderson: Could it have been possible that this voucher was made out and the checks were collected by the committee and they