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Mr. DITNESS. I doam asking hat before.
remer. DICKNESS. Thas a grount you !
The WITNESS. I testified to that before. Mr. DICKINSON. I am asking again. The WITNESS. I don't remember making such a trip as that. Mr. DICKINSON. You know the people involved whose names I mentioned?
The WITNESS. Yes. You mentioned Mrs. Dargans, I know. Miss Upshur I know. Mr. DICKINSON. Harris? The WITNESS. I don't. Mr. DICKINSON. Aurora Harris? The WITNESS. I know her. . Mr. DICKINSON. There was some testimony that a group, according to the tickets, left Washington for New York on the committee credit card. You were listed among them as to the tickets that were bought. There was your name, Aurora Harris, Lillian Upshur, and Louise Dargans. Were you in such a group?
The WITNESS. You mentioned Dargans. As I said before, I don't remember ever making any trip with Miss Dargans. Mr. DICKINSON. Or the others? The WITNESS. The others, I have been in their company. Mr. DICKINSON. As a group?
The WITNESS. The moment you mention Mrs. Dargans, I say to you I know of no trip with her.
Mr. DICKINSON. You say you might have made a trip with Miss Huff one time, possibly twice?
The WITNESS. I may have been on a plane with her. Mr. DICKINSON. Is it possible you could have been on a plane traveling simultaneously with her to the same destination on committee business three, four, or five times in the past year or two?
The WITNESS. I could not testify to that. Committee business? I couldn't testify to that. Mr. DICKINSON. Would it be unlikelyThe WITNESS. You mean to New York? Mr. DICKINSON. Usually it is New York, but wherever you were going on committee business on the same plane at the same time, would you say it would be unlikely? You know Miss Huff?
The WITNESS. Yes. Mr. DICKINSON. Would you say it would be unlikely for you to be traveling from the same place to the same place on the same plane on committee work and not know of it?
The WITNESS. I don't get the question as you put it. Mr. DICKINSON. You are listed as making at least four trips simultaneously on a plane with Miss Huff. We assume this is committee business. I was wondering if you remembered this. You were vague before. You said maybe once or twice, but you do not think you did it any number of times.
The WITNESS. I wasn't vague. I was testifying with respect to my memory. Mr. DICKINSON. I do not mean purposely vague.
The WITNESS. My testimony would be the same. I could not recall to you how many times I was on a plane with Miss Huff.
Mr. DICKINSON. You were asked about Miss Flores. You saw her approximately a year ago, as best you could recall. Do you recall in which city that was?
The WITNESS. I testified I think I remember seeing her in New York and I saw her in Washington. Mr. DICKINSON. Within the past year?
The WITNESS. The gentleman asked me within the past 2 years. Mr. DICKINSON. I am asking you now.
The WITNESS. I don't remember whether one was a year prior to that or not. I would say approximately, to the best of my recollection, it was in the last 2 years that I believe I have seen her two times.
Mr. DICKINSON. In either of these times was she in the office of the Congressman or the committee?
The WITNESS. The testimony is the same, that I didn't remember. Mr. DICKINSON. Answer my question, please.
The WITNESS. I wanted to be sure we understand the same question. The testimony is the same. Mr. DICKINSON. Answer my question, please.
The WITNESS. I did not remember seeing her there. When I saw her was not at work. This is my testimony.
Mr. DICKINSON. Is it possible that you could work someplace other than in a Member's office?
The WITNESS. What? Mr. DICKINSON. Is it possible you can work someplace other than in a Member's office?
The WITNESS. Is it possible?
The WITNESS. No, it isn't.
The WITNESS. Of course. Mr. DICKINSON. That is the reason I asked the question as I did. That is the reason the answer to me is evasive.
I asked you was she working. First, was she in the Member's office and was she working? Was she doing any work for the committee that you know of?
The WITNESS. My testimony was that I saw her. The gentleman asked the number of times I had seen Mrs. Flores in the last 2 years. I told him that I thought it was approximately twice in the last 2 years.
He asked me if I saw her working in the Congressman's office. My answer was that I did not. Is this the same question?
Mr. DICKINSON. No. I really do not care what he asked.
Mr. DICKINSON. Yes, if you recall.
The WITNESS. I saw her in Washington. I don't remember exactly where it was.
Mr. Hays. He saw her in church. She probably was not working then.
Mr. DICKINSON. I have nothing further.
1. Thit isn't. Ne you couldhis is true, is
By Mr. O'CONNOR:
A. If we were assigned to go together, I would.
gressman's stafecall ever taking together, I wont vould you nors of the
A. I can't recall at this time.
Q. On July 30 of 1965 until August 9, 1965, which is a period of 10 days or 11 days, were you with a party of six in Miami?
A. I testified to the fact I did go to Miami. I don't remember the date you mentioned.
Q. A large group of you went to Miami?
A. To the best of my recollection, the time I went to Miami it was Mr. Stone, I believe, and I believe Miss Swann.
Q. That is three. Who would be the other three?
Q. On July 30, 1965, the travel records indicate that you, Miss Swann, Mr. Štone, Miss Lewis that you have not named, Miss Himes that you have not named, and Mr. Powell all went down on the same plane together. Is that the trip you refer to?
A. I don't know about the trip you refer to. The names you mentioned, other names, are not familiar to me as going on that flight.
Q. You would say that you have never traveled in a party composed of those names?
A. Of this flight you refer to, I know those people, but these names are not familiar to me as having traveled on the plane to Miami.
Q. With you. A. That is right. Mr. DEVINE. As the chief investigator of this committee, did you have an air travel card issued to you?
The WITNESS. No, sir; I never wanted one. Mr. DEVINE. You used Miss Dargans', the chairman's, or someone else's?
The WITNESS. Never the chairman's. I used the Education and Labor Committee card signed by Derrickson, or Stone's, or I got a ticket from the chief clerk.
Mr. JONES. You have indicated that you were a troubleshooter and investigator and you get over the country. Do you make a report to anybody when you return from those trips?
The WITNESS. I make out a report in many instances, and in many instances there are followups, a matter of seeing people. These are times, also, when it was a matter of conference and reporting what
I had dones. Wouldes hie you hadet's where
Mr. JONES. Would these reports help you remember where you were on different dates if you had the reports with you?
The WITNESS. I know more or less where I was. Mr. JONES. Tonight you have not been able to remember anything, though. I wondered if you had a secretary who was making notes of where you were.
time to ask a 'You could not remuld not remem
The WITNESS. I don't recall any particular time that I didn't remember anything other than dates. Two years ago is not the best time to ask a person about to remember specific dates.
Mr. JONES. You could not remember the dates, what you went on, who went with you, and you could not remember many things. In other words, you have a poor memory, if I may say so.
The WITNESS. I remember at all times what I went on. Mr. JONES. Do you have a secretary at any time at your disposal? The WITNESS. I do. We have a pool in the office that we use. Mr. JONES. This committee, among other things, will make some recommendations as to how the committee should operate. It appears tonight, it emphasizes it more to me, that with the poor memory so many witnesses have had that if we had somebody in the office who would keep track of where these people are and the days they are working and the days they are not working, we might operate a little more efficiently. Would you agree with that?
The WITNESS. Efficiency I would be for 1 million percent. I would agree with you on anything that would bring that about. Mr. JONES. Wouldn't that help efficiency, in your opinion? The WITNESS. I would be for anything that would create efficiency. Mr. JONES. I get tired of listening to this evasiveness. You have not given a correct answer tonight. These attorneys have asked you questions. You have evaded every answer.
The WITNESS. I wouldn't agree with you on that. You may say I didn't give the answer maybe that you expected me to give, but, remember, I haven't what you have up there. I don't know what you know. For you to expect me to answer the way you would like me to do, I would be the Congressman and you should be here.
Mr. JONES. That is all.
. By Mr. TAYLER: Q. I will tell you something we know and I will ask you a question about what you know about it. Let's go back to the question Mr. O'Connor asked you about the records indicating that you were a traveler from the District of Columbia to Miami and Miami back to the District of Columbia, on July 30, 1965, and the return trip being made August 9, 1965. The records also do not indicate that you submitted any per diem voucher for such a trip, if you in fact made it.
I ask you, sir, do you have any recollection of making that trip?
A. As I testified to this gentleman, I have no recollection as to that specific trip and date.
Q. If you had in fact made the trip, would you have submitted an expense voucher?
A. If I in fact had made the trip and had had any expense, I would definitely have made an expense voucher.
Q. Would you have claimed per diem for that trip if you had in fact made it?
A. I would have unless there had been a situation where sometimes when I go places, I run into friends and I stay with them and have no expense. If I had any expense, I would have definitely made a per diem voucher.
Q. Wouldn't you say it was unusual to be out of town for 10 days in a place as far away as Miami and not have expenses and not claim per diem?
A. I would think so.
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. What you are saying is that you were not on that trip. Is that correct?
A. I didn't say that.
The WITNESS. He asked me if I would have made out a per diem voucher if I had stayed 10 days or 8 days. He said, “Isn't it unusual for someone to stay that long without having per diem?” I said “Yes, sir; it would be unusual.” That was the answer I gave.
Mr. Hays. Mr. Clark, I have traveled a good bit. In fact I am accused by some people of being quite a traveler. I realize it is difficult to remember every trip that you make as to dates some years ago. If somebody asked whether I went to Pittsburgh by car on such and such a day perhaps I could not tell and I perhaps would not have a record to show.
However, if I traveled in a group of six any time within the last 10 years, or even since I have been in Congress, if somebody asked me did I travel with the following five people I would be able to say yes or no, I did or didn't.
The WITNESS. I think I answered it. Mr. Hays. Let me ask a question, and this is friendly: Did you or did you not travel to Miami with Miss Swann, Mr. Stone, Miss Lewis, Mr. Powell, and Miss Himes?
The WITNESS. Í testified to the fact that I traveled to Miami with Mr. Stone and the other names that he mentioned I could not testify that they were on the flight that I had been on. This is what I testified to. Mr. Hays. In other words you didn't go on a party of six?
The WITNESS. Any time that I went I don't remember traveling at all with those people you mentioned.
Mr. Hays. You would have probably remembered if you had, wouldn't you?
The_WITNESS. These are people you mentioned on the travel. I think I would.
Mr. Hays. It would be safe to infer you just didn't go.
Mr. Hays. I don't know whether it will make you feel better but we had testimony you didn't go but your name was used. I don't know why
The WITNESS. Sir, you know what someone else testifies to, everyone has to stand on his own feet.
Mr. Hays. I would like you to say you did or didn't go.
The WITNESS. I would like to testify my way and then if I am asked 10 years from now as to next week I don't know how I would testify.