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You will not leave without my objecting to it until you answer this question.

The WITNESS. Let me say this I have tickets to leave, but for principle you would not keep me here on the basis of telling me that you would hold me here to get me to say what you want me to say if I was on my way to heaven tomorrow. Mr. Hays. We do not want you to say anything but the truth.

The WITNESS. I want you to understand that. I consider that as sort of a threat.

Mr. DICKINSON. You can take it as a threat. Until you give this committee an honest, forthright answer to a simple question

The WITNESS. Now you are questioning my integrity, when you say to me if I give you an honest answer, and I consider that I have given you an honest answer.

Mr. Hays. Let's get back. There is no point in continuing the debate.

Hand him the ticket. Again we will put the question. If he does not want to answer it, we can adjourn and come back tomorrow.

By Mr. TAYLER: Q. I show you, Mr. Clark, what has been marked "Clark No. 2," being three portions of a National Air Lines ticket. I direct your attention to the third portion, which is marked "Passenger Ticket, Coupon No. 1.” showing travel by 0. Clark-excuse me. These are out of order.

I am showing you the portion of this ticket bearing the passenger's name as Mr. O. Clark, showing a flight on National Air Lines from Miami to New York on March 19, 1966, and the ticket bears an airline stamp as having been used on that date for first-class travel. I ask you whether or not you made that trip from Miami to New York on that date?

A. On March 19?
Q. That is right.
A. May I have the voucher you showed me before?
From March 16 to March 20, I was in Los Angeles.

Q. Now would you answer my question, Mr. Clark, the question previously asked you? Mr. Hảys. Did you fly from Miami to New York?

The WITNESS. I did not leave Los Angeles from the time that I was in Los Angeles from March 16 to March 20 until I came back to Washington.

Mr. Hays. So you could not have made the trip. Is that the

answer av Mr. O's hesitate the right

By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. Why do you hesitate to answerA. I do not. That is not the right statement for you to make to me. Q. Will you answer “Yes” or “No”?

Å. I went from March 16 to March 20 to Los Angeles, Calif., exclusively.

Q. Will you answer either you did make the trip from Miami to New York

A. I don't know anything about this ticket, sir, and I cannot testify to something, and I want the record to show that I cannot testify to

something, that I have no knowledge of. I have no knowledge of this ticket, sir. I have knowledge of this other.

Mr. Hays. Do you have knowledge of whether or not you flew from Miami to New York on any of those days.

The WITNESS. I have knowledge that I was in Los Angeles at this time, and that's the only place that I am testifying that I was at that particular time from the 16th to the 20th. I have no knowledge of This that you showed me, and you cannot get me to testify to something that I have no knowledge of.

Q. Can you say you did not make that flight?
A. I can say I have absolutely no knowledge of this, sir.

Q. Did you order that ticket?
A. I ordered no ticket at any time for anything.

Q. Did you request that the transportation, the airline ticket reflected in Clark Exhibit No. 2, did you order that from someone in the office of the committee?

A. The only ticket I requested at that particular time, sir, was the ticket that bears the date from the 16th to the 20th, the only tickets I was involved with and requested. I think that the Congressman requested those for me.

Q. Will you wait until I finish, please?
A. I didn't finish the answer. You want the answer, don't you?

Q. You are not answering the question, and that is why you are being interrupted. If you would be responsive, you would not be interrupted.

A. OK.

Q. Clark's exhibit No. 2, the ticket from the District of Columbia to Miami and the return trip having been reissued as District of Columbia to New York, did you ever order that ticket from someone in the committee's office?

A. I just testified that I never ordered any ticket.

Q. Didn't you make trips where you requested tickets from someone in the staff?

A. Requested. You said ordered.
Q. I will amend the question.

A. I requested only a ticket to this trip, and this is the only ticket I requested.

Q. During that period of time?
A. From March 16 to March 20.

Q. Before March 16, before you went to Los Angeles, did you request the ticket that is Clark's exhibit No. 2?

A. I don't understand.

Q. Did you ask for an airline ticket from the District of Columbia to Miami and return before you went to Los Angeles?

A. During this period?
Q. Before you went to Los Angeles.


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Ă. No.

You didn't?

Q. You didn't order that ticket?

A. That is what I testified to.
Q. Do you know who used that ticket?
A. No; I do not.
Mr. Hays. You know you didn't; don't you?
Why would you refuse to answer?

The WITNESS. I am not refusing. You are putting your words into my words. I don't think this is fair, sir.

By Mr. TAYLER: Q. Now I will hand you another voucher bearing your signature as the payee requesting per diem and travel expenses for the date February 1, 1965, for travel performed for the committee to Chicago and return. I ask you if you can identify your signature on that voucher.

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you in Chicago on the date indicated?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you on committee business?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. The audit has been unable to uncover or to turn up any transportation expense or airline ticket for you from District of Columbia to Chicago and return for that trip.

or that trip; to Chinoon Did you go by air when you went to Chicago?

A. Yes, certainly. I don't remember the specific incident, but I am sure I went to Chicago by air. I didn't go to Chicago any other way.

Q. Did anybody go with you on that trip?

A. I believe there is a possibility, and I am not completely clear, this is over a year—I believe yes. Now it is coming to me.

In one of the trips to Chicago it was on the education issue of the schools there. One of the times we went to Chicago, I believe there were three people—Stone, and at that time the education chief went. I don't know if this is the date.

Q. When you went out with Stone and the education director, who was the education director?

A. Dr. Hewell.
Q. You recall flying out there with them?

A. Yes, I remember that, but I don't remember the dates. I do remember, on second thought, and I want to correct that, I believe on this occasion they went. I remember them out there, and I assume we went together.

By Mr. TAYLER: Q. Does reading the voucher and the justification you wrote down on the voucher refresh your recollection as to who you went with?

A. No, this is the trade union. I had two issues in Chicago. That was the Building Services, Local 4, and then at another time it was the education setup. I see here it is the trade union.

Q. You recall the purpose of your visit to Chicago on February 1, 1965?

A. On this occasion, the education chief I don't believe would have been with me.

Q. Do you recall who, if anyone, accompanied you-
A. I believe that,

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Q. Wait a minute, sir. It is making it difficult on the reporterwho, if anyone, accompanied you that trip?

A. I believe at one, maybe a second time, it is vague to me, Mr. Stone may have gone with me.

By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. Mr. Stone did not come to work for the committee until March of 1965, so he could not have gone out there.

A. Mr. Stone was with the committee I think maybe 2 or 3 months, and then left and came back again.

Q. Mr. Stone's testimony was that he was with the committee in

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------Committee on Education and AppropriaticXFENSIS OF SPECIAL

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Washington 25, D

Prince 1965


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I CERTIFY that the above articles have been received in good condition and the quality and quantity above specified, or the services performed as stated, and that they are in accordance with the orders therefor; that the prices charged ste past, reasonable, and in accordance with agreement.

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Q: kentlemen, Whether it wassible. Lorem

November and December of 1964, and then didn't come back until March of 1965. This is February of 1965.

A. Then if I went, it is possible. I do remember a time Mr. Stone went with me. Whether it was the date you are questioning me about now, gentlemen, I am not too clear.

Q. I notice you use the language "if you went.” Is there some doubt in your mind that you went?

A. I didn't mean to say “if I went.”
Q. That was the language you used.
A. I didn't mean that. On these things, I went.
Q. You are positive?
A. On this I went.
Mr. TAYLER. May that be marked “Clark's Exhibit 4."
(The above-referred to document was marked "Clark Exhibit 4.”')

By Mr. TAYLER: Q. I will hand you an Eastern Airlines transportation receipt showing purchase of an airline ticket on Miss Dargans' credit card on January 28, 1965; January 28, 1965. This shows the issuance of a ticket for the use of Odell Clark from District of Columbia to New York to Chicago and from Chicago to District of Columbia. I ask you if that transportation receipt, to the best of your knowledge, · reflects the issuance of the ticket you used on the Chicago trip on February 1.

A. This is February 1. This ticket is February 28. It is possible, sir. I really don't know. I didn't issue the ticket.

By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. Did you go to New York before you went to Chicago? That is what we want to know.

By Mr. TAYLER: That is the question.

A. I don't remember. I believe on one occasion I did go to New York and to Chicago because the people involved in the Chicago issue, some of the local union people who were involved in the Chicago issue, were in New York.

Whether this is the specific date or not, I don't know.

On one occasion I do believe I did go to New York to meet with some local people connected with Local 4 and to Chicago. On another occasion I may have gone from here directly.

Q. If you traveled from the District of Columbia to New York and then to Chicago, would you not have listed your travel to New York on your per diem voucher?

A. Not necessarily. In most of the cases, a great portion of the cases, any time I went to New York I made no per diem because I had no expenses in New York.

Q. The claim you made on this voucher, which is Clark No. 4, is for official travel performed for the Committee on Education and Labor from Washington, D.C., to Chicago, Ill., and return, to conduct an investigation of trade unions in Chicago, on February 1.

If you had gone via New York, wouldn't you have put New York in there?

A. Not necessarily.

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