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Mr. Hays. I believe we have airline tickets showing that you did go to Los Angeles on the day you said and return on the day you said. We checked that. Therefore your veracity on that is not in question in any way, shape, or form.
The WITNESS. I was concerned with my fellow bald-headed gentleman that he was questioning my honesty. That kind of riled me a bit. I don't want anyone to question me that way.
Mr. TAYLER. I expect you to answer questions put to you by counsel and committee members. That is all. I make no imputation on your veracity or character. , The WITNESS. But in the words of Mr. Hays this morning—
Mr. TAYLER. I would like him to restrict himself to answering the questions.
The WITNESS. I appreciate the words of Mr. Hays very much, no one would impugn anyone's motives. When you question me as to whether I have used it for my personal benefit, and you asked me two or three times, this to me was that you had some doubt in your mind as to my honesty. I don't play second fiddle to anyone as far as honesty is concerned, sir.
Mr. TAYLER. What is in my mind is beside the point. We are after the facts.
By Mr. TAYLER: Q. Sir, I will show you an Eastern Airlines transportation receipt dated March 28, 1965, indicating it was bought in flight on that date on the New York-Washington shuttle, and it bears what purports to be your signature in the upper right-hand corner. I ask you if you made that trip on that date?
A. It has three names, my name and another name.
Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I told you that the audit indicates that on the same flight on that day the records show a Miss Aurora Harris on the flight and a Don Anderson on the flight, and a Lillian Upshur on the flight? Were you on that flight with those people on that day? Do you recall?
A. This is 1965?
By Mr. O'CONNOR:
A. I don't remember because over the years I have made trips with Miss Upshur.
Q. During the last 2 years?
A. I don't really know how many times that I have made trips. There weren't many. Q. Have you ever made a trip with Mr. Anderson to New York ?
A. Sir, I believe in one of the instances, possibly in the plumbers' strike, Mr. Anderson as an attorney may have gone with us. This is not exactly certain.
Q. When was the plumbers' strike?
A. The reason I say no is because I just know that Miss Dargans is not the easiest person in the world not to see.
Q. Then if you had made a flight with Miss Dargans on that date you would have recalled it, would you not?
A. As I say, I don't remember having made any flight with Miss Dargans.
Q. If I told you that the committee has testimony that a ticket in Miss Dargans' name was on that same date as yours you certainly would have recalled being with her, would you not?
A. I don't know of her testimony you have. What I am saying in connection with the question that you ask me, which is whether I went on a flight with Miss Dargans, I say I don't remember going on any flight with Miss Dargans. This is the answer.
Q. So if you are alleged to have been on a plane with Miss Dargans on March 28, 1965, you would say somebody is in error?
A. I wouldn't say somebody was in error. I would say to them I don't remember going on any flight with Miss Dargans.
By Mr. TAYLER: Q. I thought you said you would remember if you had taken a flight.
A. I say I don't remember having gone on any flight with Miss Dargans.
Q. To the best of your knowledge you were not on a flight with Miss Dargans on that day or any other day. Is that right?
A. I don't remember ever having gone on a flight with Miss Dargans.
Q. Is that the best knowledge you have? A. That is the best knowledge I have. Mr. Hays. Do you know whether or not Miss Dargans ever traveled by air?
The WITNESS. I have no knowledge of that.
Mr. TAYLER. May I ask that ticket be marked "Clark's Exhibit No. 3”?
(The above referred to document was marked "Clark's Exhibit No. 3.")
By Mr. O'CONNOR:
Q. So if travel vouchers and tickets showed you on the same plane with Miss Huff you would say it would not be you that was traveling with her?
A. I don't remember having been on the plane with Miss Huff.
Q. Certainly if she was on the same plane with you, you would cecall that?
A. It's possible. Mr. Hays. Mr. Clark, if it showed you were on the same plane with her numerous times you would remember that, would you not?
The WITNESS. This is possible. Mr. Hays. Do you recall being on a plane with her numerous times going to New York?
The WITNESS. Not numerous times; no.
The WITNESS. I wouldn't say ever. I don't remember going numerous times. Mr. Hays. Several more than once?
The WITNESS. I say more than once. It could be possible. I don't remember numerous times, as you have stated it.
Mr. Hays. Would you go into the other room until we have a short conference here, Mr. Clark? Then Mr. Langston will call you back.
The WITNESS. All right.
The committee has leaned over backward to accommodate you. We have had Mr. Sumner Stone and Mrs. Dargans here. They were very candid and very cooperative.
It appears to the entire committee unanimously that you have been less than cooperative, that you have been evasive for what purpose, I do not know.
testifyinthen I went further stay. This
Let me say to you that we are not trying to prove anything about you. What we are trying to find out, very candidly, is whether or not your name was used on tickets that you knew nothing about. We have testimony that it was, which is in your favor.
We would like to accommodate you tonight. If we have to pull all these vouchers one by one, I will give you this subpena and you will just have to stay here until tomorrow when we can question you further.
I would point out to you that at some personal sacrifice we came back to accommodate you. We wasted 15 minutes by the clock in trying to get you to say whether or not you made a trip to Miami when you testified you were in Los Angeles.
I do not think it would be out of line for you to say, "I was in Los Angeles and couldn't possibly have made that trip," and let it go at that.
You couldn't possibly hạve made a trip to Miami if you were in Los Angeles, could you?
The WITNESS. I can appreciate very much what you are saying. You see, everybody testifies differently. You speak different in the way you speak. I am sure that anywhere that I am testifying, I am testifying to a statement that I made, my vouchers speak for themselves when I was in Los Angeles. I said I was in Los Angeles. I don't know what further you want me to say, unless you want me to say what you want me to say. This I have never done in all my life, and I don't intend to start it at this particular time. I testified to the fact, on the date that you mentioned, that I was in Los Angeles, Calif. I don't know what more you would want me to say.
I can't say anything more, even if you gave me 100 subpenas. Whatever you said to me, I could not say any more to you than the fact that I was in Los Angeles from whatever the date it was to the other date. That is the time I was there. I was at no other place other than in California. I don't know anything else I can say. Mr. Hays. I was in Europe from the 10th of November to the 30th. The WITNESS. I didn't hear that.
Mr. Hays. I was in Europe this year from the 10th of November until the 30th. If anybody were to ask me, under oath or not, did I make a trip to Los Angeles during those days, I would say "No."
The WITNESS. If I asked you that same question, you told me you were in Europe from the 10th to the 30th, I would think it was a little bit—not reflecting on anyone I would think it was strange if someone asked me if I was somewhere on earth at the other end of the world when I testified to the fact as to where I was.
Mr. Hays. If somebody put my name on a ticket that was in question and it was reflecting on me, and I were in Europe, I would say
The WITNESS. I don't know what you know.
The WITNESS. All I know is what I testify to, that I was in Los Angeles. If you know something else and you are trying to get me to say what you know, I cannot do that. I am not that competent to do that.
I am saying to you that I was in California at that particular time. That is the only thing I can testify to.
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. Did you make a flight from Miami to Washington, D.C., on the 19th as reflected by those tickets?
A. If the date here says I was in California, I did not.
A. If the date said I was in Los Angeles, sir, I don't know for what purpose and the gentleman said,
Q. Never mind the purpose.
A. The gentleman is badgering me on this. I testified to the fact. I haven't even seen any of the records. I was on vacation. I got a letter from you, no subpena. I called Mr. Hays and told him that I would be happy to come in if I could continue on my trip.
Not having the subpena, I could just as well have said I got no subpena and stayed on my vacation.
I came here more or less voluntarily to be as helpful as I possibly could be. I want to be. But, gentlemen, I don't think it is exactly proper, either, for you to tell me to testify the way you want me to testify. I know nothing about what you know.
Q. There is no suggestion that we are putting words in you mouth. The question was asked and you had tickets in front of you showing the names of 0. Clark on a Miami ticket from Washington, D.C.
A. I testified to the fact that I have no knowledge of that particular thing. What do you want me to say other than that? If I have no knowledge of it, what are you asking me now to say?
Q. I didn't understand you to say you had no knowledge.
I came. I want you to bout what we
The WITNESS. If they were the tickets issued during the time that I was in California, I said to you that I cannot shed any light to you on that particular issue whatsoever. That is what I said to you.
Mr. DICKINSON. This might be semantics, Mr. Chairman. To a lawyer it means a great deal of difference to say that he can shed no light or has no knowledge is a world of difference in meaning, inference, implication, and whatever.
He says one thing and he says smething else. .
He has been asked a question did he make the trip. All he has to do is to say “Yes” or “No." That is all we are asking. He can say this.
But to say he has no knowledge is not at all the same as saying he can shed no light. These are two different things. Mr. Hays. He has said both. Mr. DICKINSON. He said both in two successive sentences. Did you make the trip or not?
The WITNESS. I made the trip to California. This is the trip I made, sir.
Mr. DICKINSON. You will not leave here without my objection, I don't care about your vacation, until you answer this question.
The WITNESS. You mean, complete the statement—until I answer the question the way you want me to answer the question.
Mr. DICKINSON. Just a simple question. Did you or did you not? You say you are anxious to go. We are here to accommodate you.