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A. Cleveland.
Q. When you went to Cleveland what part of the year was that?

A. I really don't remember exactly the time. I was in Cleveland twice or three times.

Q. This year?
Å. I believe it was this year.
Q. Three times this year?
A. I believe so.
Q. For how long a period of time?
A. May also have been a day or so.

Q. Where else did you go to? In Florida, was that Miami you went to?

A. Yes.
Q. Where else besides California, Ohio,

A. Texas, Fort Worth, Dallas. I was also in another city. There was a third one that I can't remember.

Q. Fort Worth and Dallas are right next to one another. How long were you there?

A. Between the three cities I believe I was—it may have been, also, from 3 to 4 days.

Q. What time of the year was this trip? A. I believe to the best of my recollection that was about a year ago. Q. I am just asking for 1966, Mr. Clark. A. I don't remember having gone to Texas in 1966. Q. Let us limit it to 1966 now. Are there any other trips? A. You would have to refresh me. Q. I am asking you. A. I don't remember. Q. Would you say that the California trip, the Florida trip, and the Ohio trip were possibly the only trips you took this year?

A. If you say possibly it could be possible. I am not saying this conclusively.

Q. In the California trip who went with you?
A. Congressman Hawkins.
Q. Was he the only one who went with you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were together all during the trip?
A. Not necessarily. We weren't together the whole trip.
Q. Did you meet him out there?

A. We went on the same plane-but work I had to do—we didn't stay together.

Q. Was he out there in connection with the committee business, also?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. The Florida trip, who went with you?
A. I went alone to Florida.
Q. Did your wife accompany you?
A. No.
Q. Any member of your family?
A. No.
Q. Where did you go in Miami?
A. There was a migrant problem there with the people who came

We met with them. I couldn't tell you exactly where that specific spot was. We had one meeting there which had the AFLCIO, and a group of people there.


Q. In the Cleveland, Ohio, trip, who went with you?
A. No one that I can remember.
Q. You were by yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you accompanied by any member of your family?
A. No, sir.
Q. Nobody from the committee?
A. No, sir, not that I can remember.

Q. From these three trips which apparently are the only ones you can recall during 1966—

A. I wouldn't say that, Mr. Congressman.
Q. Can you recall others?

A. I am trying to be as frank as I can. My work calls for me traveling so much, just as sometimes when you ask me questions it reminds me of certain things. I can't remember.

Q. Most of your travel is between the District and New York City. What I was endeavoring to obtain from you is the amount of time that you spend in Washington. You have related that you were traveling to various parts of the country so much that you couldn't say, but here you have three trips that you have taken during 1966.

A. Yes.

Q. Including those three trips how much of your time would you say you spend in Washington?

A. I would say quite a good bit of my time.
Q. More than 50 percent?
A. An awful lot.
Q. More than 75 percent?
A. You are again giving me figures.
Q. I am just suggesting.
A. Figures I do not know.
Q. I would like you to give it to us.
A. If I could I surely would, but I don't know.
Q: In claiming

per diem expense would you use New York as your headquarters or Washington?

A. Washington.
Q. Always?
A. As far as I-yes.

Q. Between New York and Washington did you use your personal automobile on occasion?

A. I did. Q. How frequently would you do that? A. I don't remember really. You are talking now still 1966? Q. 1966 is all I am talking about. A. I don't really remember how many times. There were times when I did use my automobile.

Q. Do you drive your car with a great degree of regularity on weekends coming to and from?

A. Washington?
Q. Yes.

Å. Not too much. Most of the time when I go on my own I do drive my car.

Q. In other words you mean when you travel with somebody else to New York you leave the car here?

A. No.
Q. You just said when you go on your own.
A. I said when I go on my own.

Q. You mean your own personal business?
A. Yes.
Q. All right, Mr. Tayler:

By Mr. TAYLER: Q. Mr. Clark, I show you a voucher which you submitted for a trip to Los Angeles for the period March 16 through March 20, 1966, for your travel expenses, which voucher has been paid. I ask you if you performed the travel at the place and for the dates indicated on that voucher.

A. If this is a voucher and I signed it this is exactly what I per-
formed, without looking at it.
Mr. TAYLER. May that be marked "Clark No. 1”?

Yo. No.


232 TO

Chief Investigator

Address Committee on Education and Labor

U.S. House of Representatives

Washington, D.C.

(To be Alled out and sub

mitted in triplicate.)

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19 , on the Treasurer of the United States at Washington, D. C., in favor of payee named above.

•Where a voucher is certified by a corporation or company, the name of the person writing the corporate or company name, as well as the capacity in which he signs, must appear. Erample: "Chicago Edison Company, per John Smith, "Secretary or Treasurer, or member of firm, as the case may be.


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(The above referred to document was marked "Clark Exhibit No. 1.").

By Mr. TAYLER: Q. Now, sir, I show you a National Airlines ticket showing the passenger's name as 0. Clark, from Washington to Miami, with the travel having been made on March 11, 1966, and the return coupon which was reissued for a new ticket from Miami to New York rather than returning Miami to the District of Columbia, and the return portion of this ticket, which is again in the name of Mr. 0. Clark, indicates it was used on March 19, 1966. I ask you if you made the travel indicated on that ticket.

. A. I have no knowledge of the time my voucher claims I was in California. I can add no light to this information you are asking me.

Q. Are you telling us you cannot account for the fact that the voucher shows you in Los Angeles from March 16 to March 20 and there is an airline ticket indicating you as the passenger traveling from the District of Columbia to Miami on March 11 and from Miami to New York on March 19?

A. I am telling you that whatever voucher that I signed, for whatever place that I was in, I am telling you that this is where I was and what happened.

Mr. ÑEDZI. May I suggest that the witness does examine the voucher and testify as to whether that is his signature, what he actually signed?

The WITNESS. I would be happy to do that.
This is my bad writing.

Mr. Hays. Mr. Clark, you say unequivocally that you were in Los Angeles on those dates?

The WITNESS. Correct, sir.

Mr. Hays. Yet this may not have anything to do with you, I am not accusing you, but these tickets have your name on them. Are you telling us that you know nothing about them and you did not make that travel ?

The WITNESS. I am saying this, sir-if you have tickets here that say that I was somewhere other than the date, that is shown on my voucher I cannot give you any information.

Mr. Hays. Can you tell us that you did not use those tickets?

The WITNESS. The only thing I can say to you is that I can give you no information and no light on that whatsoever.

By Mr. TAYLER: Q. Did you or did you not use those tickets? A. I used whatever information, sir, that I used in that voucher. Q. That isn't the answer to my question, sir.

A. That may not be the answer that you are asking me but that is the answer † am giving you. My interpretation is that it is the answer to your question.

Q. It is very simple, Mr. Clark. You can answer the question yes or no.

You have the ticket before you. It indicates your name as a passenger from Miami to New York on March 19.

A. That is right.
Q. Did you make the trip?

A. My answer, sir, is that I stand exactly on the voucher that I signed.

Q. Are you saying you were in Los Angeles?

A. I am saying whatever this voucher says that is exactly what I am saying and nothing more.

Mr. Hays. Mr. Clark, nobody in this committee is trying to harass you. We are just trying to find out possibly

The WITNESS. I don't believe you would.

Mr. Hays (continuing). If somebody else used this ticket and used your name, to make it perfectly clear.

You state you were in Los Angeles on those dates?

The WITNESS. I am stating that whatever dates that I have signed

Mr. Hays. Hand him back that paper and have him state the dates.

The WITNESS. Whatever dates are here, from March 16 to March 20 that says I was in Los Angeles, Calif., that is where I was. This is what I am testifying to—not to something else I know nothing about.

Mr. Hays. In other words, if you were in Los Angeles you couldn't possibly have flown from Miami or to? The WITNESS. That is your interpretation.

Q. Did you or did you not make the trip?
A. I made the trip I signed for.
Q. The trip from Miami to New York?
A. I made the trip that I signed here for.
Q. You didn't make the trip from Miami to New York?
A. This trip. This is exactly the trip.

Mr. NEDZI. It should be pointed out it is possible to travel across the country these days in 4 hours; we are not badgering you, so I say to the witness it is a proper question. This is possible to have made those trips as well as have been in Los Angeles on the days you signed.

The WITNESS. I don't consider the gentleman badgering me. I don't consider anything. I am testifying to a positive thing and not something I know nothing about. I am testifying to the fact that I was in Los Angeles, Calif., the date that I subscribed to, the dates that I signed to, and that is what I am testifying to.

Mr. NEDZI. Were you in Miami?
The WITNESS. Is it possible for me to be in Miami and Los Angeles?
Mr. NEDZI. Yes.
The WITNESS. That is your interpretation, then.
Mr. Hays. Just a minute. I think we can clarify this.

Mr. Clark, the voucher shows that you were in Los Angeles on those 5 days.

The WITNESS. Correct, sir.
Mr. Hays. Were you in Los Angeles all those 5 days?
The WITNESS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hays. I don't see we need any more questions.

Q. Were you there with Congressman Hawkins those 5 days?

A. As I said, Congressman Hawkins went with me on the same plane that I went on. I attended the two or three meetings with Congressman Hawkins but I was busy, very busy, with the people, and so forth, so I was not necessarily with him all this time that he was there. I think I came back before he did.

Mr. Hays. You think you came back before he did?

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