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A. For example, there were many instances I can tell you, times during the plumbers strike, the transit strike, the bus strike

Q. What area do you refer to now?
A. New York.
Q. All New York?

À. When I would be going to New York I would not-New York being my home and when I was in New York I would not fill out a voucher. When I was there, if I was there one night or two nights, I, thank God, was able to stay home for a change and that is what happened.

By Mr. TAYLER: Q. Mr. Clark, the audit of the travel of your committee, particularly your travel, reflects that during the period January 3, 1965, to September 30, 1966, you made 35 trips between the District of Columbia and New York for which you claimed no per diem.

Were all of those trips on committee business?
A. I don't know if I made 35.

Q. Every trip that you traveled and got a ticket purchased with Government funds, did you make that trip for the committee?

A. Let me get your question.

Q. Did you ever go to New York on a ticket purchased with Government funds when you were just on a personal trip of your own?

A. If I used the ticket for my own personal visit?
Q. Yes.
A. No. I didn't think you would ask me that question.
Q. Did you ever make a trip to New York for which you did claim

per diem?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you distinguish between the occasions when you went to New York

A. Because

Q. Just a moment, sir. When you went to New York on business and you claimed per diem and those occasions when you went to New York and you didn't claim per diem?

A. I would like to apologize for being a little hasty in speaking because you did ask me not to but I did get a little concerned when you questioned, I thought, and I assume I thought wrong, I thought you were questioning my honesty when you said if I used it for my personal business.

Q. If you just answer the question and we get along.

A. I wanted that clear. You asked me if I used the cards for my personal benefit. No, Is that the question?

Q. That wasn't the question. (Question read by reporter.)

A. I don't believe, sir, that there were many occasions when I went to New York and claimed per diem. I don't believe there were many occasions. I don't remember all of them surrounding this. There may have been one or two. If so they were probably in the week when I went, during the week when I went to a particular place, did not get home, came back. I think this occurred maybe during the bus strike because I went to New York. I think it was, two or three times during this particular time.

it was.

Q. When was the bus strike?

A. If it was toward the weekend I made no per diem in reference to it.

Q. When did the bus strike occur?
A. I really don't remember, frankly.
Q. Approximately?
Å. I think it has been almost a year now.
Q. Spring, fall, summer?

A. I know it was cold weather. I really don't remember. I really don't remember. I don't remember the date when the bus strike was.

Q. You recall claiming per diem for that trip?
A. I didn't say that one. I gave him an example.
Q. We want to be specific, Mr. Clark.
A. I want to be truthful, not specific.
Q. I want specifics, also.
A. I want to be truthful. I couldn't say to you exactly which time

I gave him an example. But I do believe that possibly there were one or two occasions when I did ask


diem. Q. What was the distinguishing factor as to whether you claimed per diem or did not claim per diem?

A. This is what I explained. If I went Monday, Tuesday, in the middle of the week, for example, and if I was in conference, and as I gave him an example, I went before and came back, not having even gone home, I made a request for expenses. That is because I did incur expenses.

If I went, for example, on an occasion when I was able to stay there and come back, I considered myself saving committee funds.

Q. Do you maintain a residence or apartment in New York?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where is it?
A. 120 West 138th Street.

Q. Is your family there?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you maintain a residence in Washington?
A. Temporary residence while I am working here.

Q. A hotel?
A. No, a room.
Q. Why do you say it is temporary?

A. Because I am working here. When I go to New York or when I am away from here I go home.

Q. Do you rent this room all the time, though, this room in Washington?

A. Not necessarily all the time. I have had at least three or four when I was able to get them. Now I have a pretty permanent one.

Q. During the past 2 years have you checked in and out of the room as you came to Washington and left Washington, or have you had the room rented all the time?

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A. Have I checked in and out? I don't think I understand exactly.

Mr. Hays. I think what he means is this: Have you paid for the room monthly and not had any rebate for the times you weren't in it?

The WITNESS. No, sir.
Mr. Hays. Like checking in and out of a hotel?

The WITNESS. I think I had about five places that I have lived since I have been here. The first couple places the people would hold the place for me. Then I got a place where they wouldn't do it and then I was no longer able to do it.

Mr. Hays. When they held it for you you paid them for only the nights you stayed there?

The WITNESS. No, sir. I paid by the month and I had to pay by the month.

By Mr. TAYLER: Q. For how long during the past 2 years have you had a room that you paid for by the month? Was it during the entire time or part of the time?

A. In the last 2 years I have been here in Washington, prior to that it was just month to month, maybe a month in New York, a month here, and so on. In the last two years I think I more or less have been in Washington semipermanent, and I have had two places.

Q. I am confused. May I pursue a line of questioning?

As I understand your testimony you have been on the investigating staff for five and a half to six years.

A. Correct, sir.
Q. You have been the chief investigator for a period of how long?

Ả. Chief investigator, I would say, for approximately 3 years, 2 or 3 years.

Q. As chief investigator what did you and the chairman consider your headquarters? Was it Washington or New York?

A. I really don't know that answer, sir. It really was never defined to me. Even the income tax, I raised that with them. I don't know

Q. I am not interested in that. What did you and the chairman consider as your headquarters?

A. The chairman I don't think ever discussed it. I didn't know.
Q. Where did you spend

A. I have a home in New York and I have a place where I pay rent in Washington. I consider my home in New York.

Q. Your permanent home is New York?
A. My permanent home is in New York.

Q. Where did you perform the majority of your services to the
committee, in New York or Washington?

A. In Washington. Not only in Washington but throughout.

Q. Just answer the question. What percentage of your time did you spend in Washington?

A. I really don't know. The greatest proportion of it?

Q. The greater portion of it, 90 percent?
A. I really don't know.
Q. You are the only one who does know. Think it over and tell us.

A. I don't know what proportion of the time because the type of work I have done never has been on the basis of time or specifics. I really don't know what proportion of the time.

When I go on vacation, like I am at the present time, which always has been when Congress adjourns, that's the only time I go on vacation. I then go to New York.

Mr. DICKINSON. Can you give us your best judgment?
The WITNESS. In what?
Mr. DICKINSON. As to the answer to the question.
The WITNESS. The time?
The WITNESS. I couldn't.

By Mr. TAYLER: Q. Do you spend more than half your time when you are spending official duties here or New York?

A. More of my time here?
Q. Do you spend more than half of your working time here in

A. Of course.
Q. Do you spend three-quarters of your time here?
A. I don't know.
Q. Somewhere between a helf and three-quarters?

A. Specifics I couldn't tell you-half, three-quarters, or what have you.

Q. It is more than half?
A. I never thought of it in those terms.

Q. When you are in New York what office do you work out of?

A. I don't have an office. I don't have a specific office where I work out of New York. It is a question of whatever the issue is. That is where we go.

Q. Are you saying that when you are in New York, which apparently is about 50 percent of your time, you work from your home?

A. I don't know, No. 1, if it is 50 percent. When I go to New York I go to New York on issues, on problems. If so, for example, if it is a strike situation, whatever it is, I go wherever the problem is.

Q. You maintain a diary of your travels, do you? Å. A diary, no. Q. Do you have any personal record of the time you stay in New York?

A. Nothing more than whatever is required in terms of report, and I make that.

Q. You mentioned something about Internal Revenue. Did you prepare anything for Internal Revenue showing how much time you spend in New York and how much time here?

A. No. I questioned it at one time because I thought at one time the fact that I had to pay double expenses, because it is double on me, with the place in New York and a place here, food in New York and food here, I thought that I would have been able to have gotten an allowance from the Internal Revenue Service. They told me that they would not allow it. This is how I happened to raise that. It was rather difficult on me.

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Q. I can understand that over the past 5% or 6 years it might be difficult to evaluate the amount of time you spent in Washington and that in New York, but during the current year, 1966, where did you spend the majority of your time?

A. The majority of my time, as I saw it-
Q. In 1966.

A. The majority of the time was always either here in Washingtonyou are shaking your head. I don't know what you are asking me. Q. Not

either here in Washington or someplace else. A. As I testified to you earlier, my position as the investigator required me to do quite a bit of traveling. When you ask about the majority of my time, if you say working out of Washington I would say a great proportion of my time is here in the Nation's Capital. But it did not necessarily mean that I was personally here because it required me going other places. That is what I meant.

Q. Let us limit our discussion to 1966. Aside from going to New York on official business or otherwise, in what other areas have you taken trips?

A. California.
Q. How long were you in California?

A. I was in California, I think, twice. One time, and this is the best of my recollection, I don't remember exactly, I believe one time I was in California for about maybe 4 or 5 days. It may have been a week.

Another time I was in California, I believe, also around the same time. This was during the Watts situation, and so forth.

Q. Was this during 1966?
A. At one time 1965 and one time in 1966.
Q. I am just talking about 1966.
A. There was a 1966 time when I went to California.
Q. For from 4 to 7 days?
A. I really don't remember.
Q. What other trips have you taken outside of going to New York?
Ă. Outside of Washington?
Q. Yes.
A. Florida, Ohio,
Q. You say you went to Florida?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you go to Florida?
A. I don't remember the exact date.
Q. Approximately?
A. I really couldn't give you the dates of any of them.
Q. In the early part of the year, spring, summer, or fall?
A. I would say during maybe the middle part of the year.
Q. About the spring or summer?
A. Approximately.
Q. For how long a period?
A. A day or so.
Q. One or two days?
A. Yes.
Q. You mentioned someplace else. Did you mention Akron?
A. I said Ohio.
Q. Where did you go in Ohio?


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