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Mr. DICKINSON. You really had very little contact with him after you were on Bimini?
The WITNESS. Very little.
Mr. DICKINSON. Who was in his home, whether they were on committee business, you have no knowledge of?
The WITNESS. No; I have no knowledge of who was there.
Mr. DICKINSON. Is that a regularly scheduled service or is it a ferry service?
The WITNESS. Yes, it goes twice a day. He uses that one or uses Mackey Airlines. You can go by boat when they operate, but they usually fly. Mr. DICKINSON. How was that paid for? The WITNESS. What was paid for?
Mr. DICKINSON. Your transportation by Chalk's Flying Service from Miami to Bimini; how was that paid for?
The WITNESS. Probably by check or cash.
The WITNESS. I might have paid cash or check, I am not sure how I paid.
Mr. DICKINSON. It wasn't on a credit card?
Mr. DICKINSON. Have you ever used the committee credit card, or has the committee credit card ever been used for Chalk's Flying Service to Bimini?
The WITNESS. No; I am almost sure.
The WITNESS. Yes, he honors credit cards. He honors even Diners',
Mr. Hays. Normally these charter flights don't, because they are not members of the association.
The WITNESS. I don't know whether they do or not. This I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Hays. He might honor a Diner card or something like that, but no Diner card is issued to members of the committee, to be paid for out of Government funds.
The WITNESS. Not that I know of. I just don't know. Mr. DICKINSON. So you went down independently and left independently?
The WITNESS. Yes, sir.
Mr. DICKINSON. Left where?
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. Did you have any conversations with Miss Givens when she was hired by the committee?
A. No, I didn't. I remember I saw her in the outer room and so
been in March part of the year: on March 27 in
Q. Did you have any conversations with her when you gave her the ticket to go to New York?
A. I didn't give her a ticket.
But you purchased the ticket for her?
Q. During the course of the interrogation here today has your memory been refreshed on the block of 20 tickets you purchased at that one time?
A. Well, I just remember when I bought the tickets and put them on his desk, that is all. It was a large number. I don't know if it was 20.
Q. Would it have been in March of this year?
Q. Was it at the time of his testimonial dinner on March 27 in New York?
A. This I don't really remember, Mr. O'Connor. I know it was the early part of the year. I thought it was January or February.
Q. Did you go up for that testimonial dinner?
Mr. DICKINSON. One further question now and I am finished, Mr. Stone.
The WITNESS. Yes.
Mr. DICKINSON. You went to Miami, you stayed overnight, and you stayed on Government business; right?
The WITNESS. Yes, sir. Mr. DICKINSON. You didn't file a claim for per diem? The WITNESS. No, sir. Mr. DICKINSON. Were you staying in a private home or did you check in-stay in some commercial place? Did you stay in your own name?
Q: Dative work. Some investigalithe committee
The WITNESS. Stayed in a private home. Mr. DICKINSON. Stayed in a private home? The WITNESS. Yes, sir. Mr. DICKINSON. And for that reason you didn't charge per diem? The WITNESS. Yes, sir. Mr. O'CONNOR. Would you give us the name of the party you stayed with?
The WITNESS. Henry Arrington, an attorney. A-r-r-i-n-g-t-o-n. I stay with him quite a bit when I am there.
By Mr. O'Connor:
A. Gee, he lives in New York City, he has a private detective agency and he is a friend of the Chairman's.
Q. Does he perform services for the committee?
A. He had done some investigating—I have been told he has done investigative work. I wasn't in touch with Henry like that, but
Q. Do you know how he is reimbursed by the committee for his services?
A. This I don't know. I don't know how he is reimbursed.
Mr. Hays. Mr. Stone, did anybody at any time ask you any intimate details concerning the personal life of the chairman?
The WITNESS. Congressman Dickinson asked me about who stayed in his home. Mr. Hays. Other than that. The WITNESS. Not me personally.
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. I didn't ask you anything when you and I talked 3 or 4 days ago?
A. No, you didn't; no. Some of the staff members have complained about this.
Mr. Hays. This letter from the chairman says, “The conclusion is inescapable that committee staff members are being made scapegoats."
Do you feel this committee is making you a scapegoat?
The WITNESS. I don't know until I read your report. I don't think so right now. Mr. Hays. Does anything up to now indicate that you are? The WITNESS. Not right now; no. Mr. Hays. Would you say—and I am not trying to boobytrap you or anything—I feel like I have leaned over backward to be fair.
The WITNESS. I think you are fair; yes. Mr. Hays. If anybody has been made a scapegoat, would you kind of think when you were ordered to buy tickets for somebody that didn't use them, that you kind of maybe were made a scapegoat then?
The WITNESS. Yes; but is that illegal? Mr. Hays. Well, I don't know whether it is illegal or not, but it is sure unethical around here.
The WITNESS. Yes, yes. Well, I wasn't happy about it, but-Mr. Hays. The point I am trying to make is, if you have been made a scapegoat, I just can't feel like I or any member of this committee did it.
The WITNESS. No.
Mr. Hays. But the letter indicates that we did. That is the chairman's opinion, I am sure.
The WITNESS. Yes.
The Whis point;. For theow?
Mr. DICKINSON. For the record. You said I had mentioned that; you mean right here and now?
The WITNESS. Yes. Mr. DICKINSON. I have never talked to you prior to this hearing? The WITNESS. No, sir. Mr. DICKINSON. As far as you know, I have never talked to anybody on your staff, have I?
The WITNESS. As far as I know; yes, sir.
Mr. Hays. Well, I think the purpose of Mr. Dickinson's question was to find out—we have had testimony that Miss Givens was there and she was on the staff payroll and we were curious as to whether she was doing any kind of work for the committee. That was the only
The WITNESS. She was there but I don't know what she was doing, though. I didn't see her that much.
Mr. Hays. I want you to understand there was no question about any personal contacts she may or may not have had with the chairman. We are not interested in that.
The WITNESS. She could have, I didn't see her very much. In fact, I saw very little of the chairman. As I say, there are two islands. To get there you have to go by boat and I am not a fisherman.
Mr. O'CONNOR. Any questions? Mr. JONES. Those 20 tickets you bought at one time, were they all for the same destination?
The WITNESS. I think they were a variety, sir. I think there was like Washington to Miami and New York to Miami and it was different, it was a combination of—it wasn't the same round-trip ticket. I didn't buy 20 tickets between Washington and Miami or Washington—it was different combinations, you might say. Mr. JONES. But you know that 20 were bought at one time? The WITNESS. Yes. I don't Mr. JONES. And it was bought in the names of four different people?
The WITNESS. Yes. And I don't know for sure it was 20. I just know it was a rather large number. It was more than 8 or 9 or 10. I remember it was
Mr. JONES. You have said 20 several times. Mr. Hays. May I interject? At one stage he said 20 or 39; he couldn't remember.
The WITNESS. In that one instance at one timeMr. JONES. I wasn't here during the whole time. The only reference I have heard is 20 each time. Mr. Hays. He qualified that as around 20, more or less.
The WITNESS. One time I did that. The Congressman said I did that several times. I don't recall saying that several times; I only recall doing it once. If there is more than that, of the 20 at a time, I didn't do that. I can't explain it if it happened.
Mr. Hays. Mr. Nedzi.
Mr. NEDZI. I would just like to ask Mr. Stone if he could describe whether there were any unusual problems with the poverty program in Miami as opposed to other cities in the United States; Chicago, Detroit, Philadelphia have tremendous problems in the poverty program.
The WITNESS. The only problem that really developed subsequently was the neighborhood legal services program and that became quite serious, but there wasn't no-in fact, the poverty program in Miami-first, though, we had the complaint about Negroes being excluded. I made a couple of trips down there. It turned out half the board of directors were Negro, something like that. But we had gotten a letter from somebody down there that the Negroes were excluded from jobs in the poverty program and they were asking for an investigation.
Mr. NEDZI. But all the travel then was on committee business to investigate poverty, or was there other subject matter that the committee investigated?
The WITNESS. Well, then there was the situs picketing problem, the problem of exclusion of Negroes from the construction trade unions, and which this report was prepared
Mr. NEDZI. How much time is spent with respect to the situs picketing as opposed to poverty on the investigations that the committee was conducting, relatively speaking?
The WITNESS. I would say there were four or five trips made on the situs picketing and three or four on the poverty. Mr. NEDZI. That you yourself made?
The WITNESS. That I-no; I didn't make that many myself. But the total I can think of. Mr. Schwartz went down and spent a week there. Mr. NEDZI. There were only nine trips made?
The WITNESS. I am just saying, I am trying to estimate in terms of relative importance. I don't think there were more than 10 trips made for the two combined purposes.
Mr. NEDZI. On business? The WITNESS. That I can recall. Mr. NEDZI. Was there any other city in the United States which had this many trips made?
The WITNESS. I don't recall any on trips. For a while there we made a considerable number of trips to New York because of the Haryou scandal, and we were deeply concerned about that.
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