Senator MURRAY. Colonel Berliner.

STATEMENT OF COL. HENRY A. BERLINER, CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD, ENGINEERING AND RESEARCH CORPORATION, RIVERDALE, MD.

Senator MURRAY. Colonel Berliner, will you state your name and present position to the reporter?

Colonel BERLINER. Henry Berliner. I am chairman of the board of the Engineering and Research Corporation.

Senator MURRAY. What has been your training, your experience in this subject of technological research?

Colonel BERLINER. I have been in aviation ever since I got out of school. I was trained and educated to be a mechanical and aeronautical engineer. I have been in aeronautics all my life.

Senator MURRAY. How many years?

Colonel BERLINER. About 25 to 28 years.

Senator MURRAY. Would you describe, in a general way, your company's plans for post-war aircraft production?

Colonel BERLINER. Before the war, we were manufacturing a small commercial airplane for private flying, a private flying airplane, and also we were manufacturing machine tools.

During the war, we have, of course, continued to manufacture. machine tools, but our aircraft department has gone over to items for the war.

At the conclusion of the war, we hope to go back to aircraft as rapidly as possible.

Senator MURRAY. Were you manufacturing aircraft before the war?

Colonel BERLINER. Yes, sir.

Senator MURRAY. Were you also operating this Engineering and Research Corporation? Is that a separate corporation?

Colonel BERLINER. No; it is one company doing the two things. Senator MURRAY. Now, what are the basic problems in the manufacture of personal aircraft?

Colonel BERLINER. Our principal problem will be to go from the manufacture of war items, back to the manufacture of airplanes, and to prevent a time lag as much as possible.

In other words, if the war were to stop right this minute without any notice, we would be 4 to 6 months in getting back into the production of private aircraft.

Senator MURRAY. What plans has your company afoot now for post-war production?

Colonel BERLINER. We would like to tool up for post-war aircraft, and we would like to go beyond that. We would like to manufacture components and parts for aircraft, as long as this would not interfere with our deliveries to the Army and Navy.

Under present conditions, we do not have that permission, and we cannot get the material. Hence, there will be a time lag that I spoke about, which will require a lay-off of probably four-fifths of our employees while that is taking place.

Senator MURRAY. I understand you to mean that you would like to engage in the manufacture of components and parts for civilian airplanes?

Colonel BERLINER. Yes, sir; we would like to make up components so that instead of taking 4 to 6 months, we could commence deliveries within 1 or 2 months.

Senator MURRAY. There would be considerable demand right at this time for components and parts for civilian aircraft?

Colonel BERLINER. No, sir. There is no demand now, would be willing to go ahead and do it anyway.

but we

Senator MURRAY. There has not been any production of civilian airplanes recently?

Colonel BERLINGER. No, sir.

Senator MURRAY. Would that not create a demand for parts for existing planes?

Colonel BERLINER. No, sir. These parts that we would like permission to manufacture are parts which will go into completed airplanes. It is simply what we call a pipe line. We want to cover the pipe line so that we can commence assembling the complete airplanes as soon as possible after the termination of hostilities.

Senator MURRAY. And you are interested there because of the fact that it would enable you to make an easy transition to a post-war production?

Colonel BERLINER. Yes.

Senator MURRAY. Do you have any fear of unfair competition from these surplus planes that the Government will dispose of after the war?

Colonel BERLINER. No, sir. We have no fear of that at all, but I would like to say that other companies may have that fear. We had only commenced production on a new model when the war started, and then we ceased production of that model.

Now, other companies have been producing a model during the war and are not ready to produce anything more modern at the end of the war, so whereas, while we have nothing to fear from them, in our opinion there are other companies who might object to it and whose objections might be valid.

Senator MURRAY. Do you think there will be any considerable conversion of war planes to civilian planes after the war?

Colonel BERLINER. Do you mean the companies now building military aircraft might go to civilian?

Senator MURRAY. They might convert a great many of the surplus planes that will be on hand after the war into planes for civilian use. Would that be possible?

Colonel BERLINER. Of course, the only planes that are really suitable in the private plane class would be what we call the grasshopper type, the liaison type of plane, of which there are about three different models made. Most of them, I believe, will be pretty well worn out, and a great many of them will not even be in this country.

I think that the people who build those particular planes could answer that qusetion better than I could.

Personally, we have no fear of them at all.

Senator MURRAY. You do not anticipate that that would create any serious problem for the aircraft manufacturers in the post-war period?

Colonel BERLINER. We feel that those planes are obsolescent, and that new types will be demanded by the public.

Senator MURRAY. Where is your plant located?

Colonel BERLINER. It is in Riverdale, Md., about 8 miles out from Washington on the Baltimore road.

Senator MURRAY. Has your plant been considerably expanded during the war?

Colonel BERLINER. Yes, sir. It is about four or five times the size it was at the beginning of the war.

Senator MURRAY. To what extent do you anticipate that you will be able to continue your plant after the war?

Colonel BERLINER. That is rather a difficult question, because we do not know just what the demand for these planes is going to be. We can give you an estimate. We would estimate that we would have to lay off approximately half of our employees. In other words, we will have a good many more than we had before the war, but only half as many as we have now.

However, I would like to point out that we made a survey of our employees, and found that about one-fifth of the men would leave our employ as soon as the war is over in order to go back to other jobs that are not essential, and that another fifth of our employees, who are women, would leave us because they have no desire to work after the war.

Senator MURRAY. Have you any other observations to make that might be helpful to our committee?

Colonel BERLINER. The question has come up as to what the Government could do to help civilian aviation, personal planes, and it has been answered almost completely, I believe. I do not believe anything has been said about possible Government aid to navigation. It has been said that we require fields, a lot more fields than we now have, but, I believe, in addition to that, we will require either an elaborate marker system, or more radio aids, or both.

I think that would be of a great deal of help in expanding the private plane market.

Senator MURRAY. The airplane industry is pretty well equipped with facilities for developing new ideas and new technological methods? Colonel BERLINER. Yes, sir.

Senator MURRAY. And do you think the planes that will be turned out after the war can be brought down in price to such an extent that it will be made attractive for personal use?

Colonel BERLINER. I do not anticipate the figure that is given in the committee's report which they say themselves is a "blue sky" figure. Our own estimate is that there will be about 25,000 personal planes built a year, and then possibly that will increase to 50,000 within 2 or 3 years after the war.

We do not foresee any parallel to the automotive industry at this time.

Senator MURRAY. No; I should not think so. It seems inconceivable to me that the air is going to be filled with small personal planes flitting to and fro over the country after the war.

Of course, I can see where they would be very useful in industry, in certain commercial enterprises, for use in business activities, but it does not seem to me they would become numerous for pleasure purposes.

Colonel BERLINER. I would like to stress again that the greatest difficulty that pilots have is finding their way. We feel that it is very easy to teach a person to fly a modern airplane, but that is only a small portion of the work.

Senator MURRAY. Most of the accidents occur as a result of the pilot being unable to find the landing place; is that right?

Colonel BERLINER. Faulty navigation or interpretation of the weather, and things of that sort.

Senator MURRAY. Thank you very much, Colonel Berliner.
This concludes the hearing for today.

On tomorrow, July 11, we will have other witnesses. Mr. Frankensteen, the director of aircraft of the United Automobile Workers, C. I. O.; Harvey Brown, president of the International Association of Machinists, of the A. F. of L., and Thomas Burtch, of the Army Air Force Branch of the Smaller War Plants Corporation. Those three witnesses will testify tomorrow morning at 10:30.

(Whereupon, at 12:55 p. m., the hearing was adjourned until 10:30 a. m., Tuesday, July 11, 1944.)