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Senator CARROLL. Thank you very much for appearing. May I ask a question or two!

Mr. GRUENFELD. Yes, sir.
Senator CARROLL. You really feel then that we should not pass

this bill until we have the report of this Commission?

Mr. GRUENFELD. Yes, sir. This is speaking on behalf of the Tacoma Chamber of Commerce. That is absolutely correct. Now I have a personal feeling in this myself, because I was one of the several people who was called in by the wild land research center which is associated with the University of California at Berkeley, to discuss the proposed outline for this wilderness study which has been contracted to them.

I had this belief prior to that time but after attending this 2-day meeting, along with Olaus Murie who also testified here today, I was very strongly convinced that if they implemented the outline which they prepared at that time that there would be information here that would be invaluable.

I appreciate that very possibly I was mistaken since Senator Anderson is a member of the Commission and I assume aware of what they are doing and yet he proposed this bill. This is my own sincere belief. For instance, there is this problem. Senator Anderson himself said that there has been this problem of defining wilderness. As of August 1960 they had not defined it.

They had not even gotten the definition of wilderness. This illustrates the complexity of the problem. Here we are getting ready to set aside 30-some-odd million acres for wilderness. We can't define wilderness and even harder than that is the definition of the value that a person gets out of going into a wilderness area and what type of area will provide him with this wilderness experience.

Now I don't like to use this word but I am different in that I feel like a lot of people in this room who are stanch believers in wilderness. For me to get a real wilderness experience it takes a lot of wilderness. Whenever I have had the opportunity in New Guinea and the Philippines, in Europe, wherever I can get away from people and go into these areas, whether it is by canoe or by back pack, like the way it usually was on patrol in the infantry, I took it. But I am a very different person and I am in a small minority. If I remember the statistics correctly, four-tenths of 1 percent of the people who use the national forests get into these wilderness areas.

I think it is absolutely unwise from a land management standpoint to set aside these areas for people like myself who are so tremendously in the minority.

Now I would be the first one to do everything I could financially and otherwise to prevent the complete destruction of wilderness because I believe in it heartily.

Senator CARROLL. I notice that you are chairman of this group of the Puget Sound section of the Society of American Foresters. Are you fully employed by that group or do you have another occupation?

Mr. GRUENFELD. No, sir. I am employed as a forester by the Weyerhaeuser Co. in the Tacoma office with the title of assistant land supervisor. I was former manager of the Skykomish Tree Farm which is one of Weyerhaeuser tree farms.

Senator CARROLL. From what you say don't you think that your society, no matter what the Commission would recommend, would not recommend the handling of the lands in this fashion, the drawing together under the President? Don't you think that is a pretty foregone conclusion from what you say here, your feeling about this?

Mr. GRUENFELD. Sir, I am very sorry I did not understand your question.

Senator CARROLL. Your statement here that you oppose this bill because it would not promote wise resources management?

Mr. GRUENFELD. That is correct, sir.

Senator CARROLL. What if the Commission would advocate a measure along this line, along the lines indicated, a policy as advocated by Senator Anderson in this bill?

Mr. GRUENFELD. If the Commission after its study advocated something like this I think it would certainly be good reason for passing some sort of bill. The point here is that we should wait and hear what they have to say and then act upon it and have the benefit of their opinion, whatever it is, and their statistics.

Now one thing they are doing, sir, is making a census of about 1,500 people who are actually questioned within the wilderness area. Now this is something that has never been done before and would really be interesting to me and important, to see what these people went into the areas for: Were they simply going into there to hunt or fish or what were they going in for? From a land management basis look at the resource that we are going to blanket here in the existing wilderness area, the geologic resource, the water resource. More and more it is apparent that to manage a watershed properly does not mean simply setting it aside.

For instance, the experiments in Senator Allott's State of Colorado at Frazier have shown that probably proper resources management for water production primarily should include timber cutting because it increases the total development of water.

These are things that we are going to forgo. Now if we are going to forgo them in the interest of these very substantial values of wilderness at least we should know what we are going to forgo in our opinion. So this from the standpoint of the Society of American Foresters is the approach of the land management.

Senator CARROLL. How many in the Society of Foresters are in the Federal Government ?

Mr. GRUENFELD. I imagine there is someone here who ca quote that exactly. There is something less than 50 percent as I understand it now, private industry has approximately 50 percent.

Mr. Crafts, do you know offhand the percentage of the Society of American Foresters who are in the Federal service?

Senator CARROLL. I am informed that there are about 10,000 who are employed by the Federal Government. Does the society speak for these, too? 'I am thinking now of the professional group.

Mr. GRUENFELD. As stated I am speaking only for the Puget Sound section. I am chairman of the Puget Sound section of the society, We have approximately 650 voting members. Of these 650, my offhand guess would be that 50 percent are Forest Service.

We sent this policy statement out by letter and overwhelmingly as I recall by approximately 31/2 to 1 or 4 to 1, they endorsed the policy statement which included that statement that I read to you.

Senator CARROLL. You do not know how the other group-you do not know how the group in private employment will feel about this.


Mr. GRUEN FELD. In addition to that, I would say that our section statement is in accord with the national statement which is not explicit, of course, on this bill, as our statement isn't, either, but our statement did not disagree with the national statement.

So by written ballot the society approved something that was not in opposition to this.

As I recall, it was very general, but I checked with the executive secretary of the society, as well as with one of the council members, to make sure that our statement was within the policy of the national organization, and it was, definitely.

Senator CARROLL. The reason I asked the question: I have not made up my mind on this bill. I want to get the best professional views I can get. I want to know whether I am dealing with professional men who are on the side where they have a right to be.

I am trying to get the best opinion I can get to find out what is the best procedure. Should we go ahead or have the report come in before we pass this bill?

Thank you very much.
Mr. GRUENFELD. Certainly that is a very good question.

Senator ALLOTT. Mr. Chairman, while this gentleman is on the stand, and I appreciate your very fine statement, but I am sure you would want corrected a figure which you gave and which I think is in

Mr. GRUENFELD. Certainly.

Senator ALLOTT. Mr. Crafts is in the room. I asked him this question this morning about the comparative number of people using the wildlife areas and Mr. Crafts, could you give us—if you do not object, sir.

Mr. GRUENFELD. Not a bit, sir.
Senator ALLOTT. Give us those figures at this time.

Mr. CRAFTS. You are talking of the wilderness type areas in the national forest?

Senator ALLOTT. Yes, sir.

Mr. CRAFTS. The latest figures we have for 1960 and the estimate was there are about 1,903 thousand man-days of use of these wilderness type areas.

Now, this averages about 2 percent of the total recreational use of the national forest system.

In terms of number of recreation visits the percentage is slightly less, because the average individual when he goes into the wilderness areas stays a little longer than he stays if he uses the mass-type recreational facilities.

But for general purposes about 2 percent of the recreational use is on the wilderness

Senator ALLOTT. On a man-day basis?
Mr. CRAFTS. That is right.

Senator ALLOTT. On a visit-day basis I think you told me it is about 116 percent?

Mr. CRAFTS. Yes; I did. But I find in rechecking the figures that it is about two-thirds of 1 percent.

Senator ALLOTT. This was the figure that was bandied around this morning--that this wilderness area comprises about 8 percent.

Mr. CRAFTS. Eight percent. I might, if I have a moment, correct another figure.

In terms of commercial forest area, the wilderness-type areas include about 5 percent of the total of such area in the national forest. In terms of timber volume, they include about 4 percent of the sawtimber volume.

Mr. GRUENFELD. This was not one of my figures.
Mr. CRAFTS. No; this was not.

Senator METCALF. Mr. Crafts is talking as to some figures I put in the record.

Mr. CRAFTS. I was trying to clear up a number of figures.

Senator ALLOTT. Senator, I had asked him these questions this morning. I thought this was a good time. The witness used a very much lower figure,

Mr. GRUENFELD. Sir, this figure I used, four-tenths of 1 percent, this is the figure as I read it, as I said. I did not give it positively, but the point was that it was a very minor proportion of the people who go in.

Senator ALLOTT. Thank you.

Thank you for permitting me to have Mr. Crafts get this in at this time.

Senator CARROLL. Before the witness leaves the stand, I want to ask Mr. Crafts a question.

Are you a member of the society of which this gentleman spoke? Mr. CRAFTS. Yes; I am, Senator.

Senator CARROLL. How many of those professional foresters are in the Government service? Do you know!

Mr. CRAFTS. I don't know exactly, but I would estimate that of the total membership in the Society of American Foresters something less than half is currently in public employment.

Senator CARROLL. Are you familiar and acquainted with and do you have knowledge of the opinion of your national group on this subject?

Mr. CRAFTS. To my knowledge, Senator, there has been no referendum taken on this wilderness question, at least, in recent years.

But there was adopted a statement of policy by the council of the society a year or two ago, which is the governing body of the society, and that statement, I believe, has been submitted to the committee in connection with some of the earlier hearings. You will probably find it in the record.

My recollection is that it endorsed the wilderness concept in general. It did not go to specifics of legislation.

I think at that time and I am not sure of this that the resolution indicated that it thought the administrative procedures being followed in the executive branch were in general adequate.

Senator CARROLL. Mr. Chairman, while you were out I was raising a question; I am trying to make up my mind on this bill as I hear the testimony about wanting to put it over until the Commission makes: a report.

Here is a witness who is a professional man. I wanted to find out about the other foresters who are not here and who may have a different viewpoint.

I assume they differ like lawyers differ. Nevertheless, I like to get the opinion of the professional men. I may not agree with it. I may not agree with the American bar all the time. I am trying to find out, if I can, what group has a little vested interest here and what is the reason they object to it here and what is in the broad national interest.

That is the purpose of my questioning and I thank you very much. The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions?

Senator METCALF. Mr. Chairman, when Mr. Crafts was testifying a moment ago in response to Senator Allott, he volunteered a statement about clarifying some figures that I had previously put in the record.

I wonder at this time if it would not be well to further clarify those figures.

The table that I put in the record from the Forest Service showed that the commercial forest acreage in wilderness is 4,690,700 acres out of a total of 14,661,000 acres. That is 32 percent of the wilderness land. It equals 672 percent of the commercial timberland in the national forest in those States with wilderness.

It equals 5.2 percent, and this is the figure Mr. Crafts is talking about, of the 89,450,000 national forest commercial acres.

It is but 4.3 percent of the 107,815,000 acres of commercial timberland available to log in all Federal holdings.

Now, here is the chairman's figure, it is a mere nine-tenths of 1 percent of the 490 million commercial forest acres in the entire United States.

The CHAIRMAN. The next witness is Mr. Roberts.

Senator DWORSHAK. Mr. Chairman, I would like to present Mr. Roberts, who is from McCall, Idaho.

Art Roberts is chief fire warden and field manager of the Southern Idaho Timber Protective Association; past president of Western Forestry and Conservation Association, during its 50th anniversary year; for 12 years mayor of McCall, and presently first vice president of thé Idaho Municipal League.

He is a member of the Natural Resources Committee of the Idaho State Chamber of Commerce, and is representing that organization today.

His statement is endorsed by the following Idaho chambers of com


Pocatello, Rupert, Boise, Kellogg, Nampa, Caldwell, Moscow, Cour d'Alene, St. Anthony, Wallace, Orofino.

Also, by the Mountain States Association which represents 8 States, including 155 State and regional chambers and trade associations.

By the North Fork Water Users Protective Association of St. Anthony, and Associated Industries of Idaho.



Mr. ROBERTS. Thank you, Senator.

Mr. Chairman, in addition I would like permission to introduce into the record the statements from about 10 different organizations, if I might. I do not want to read them, but simply introduce them in the record.

These organizations include the Boise Cascade Corp. of Boise, Idaho; Browns Industries of McCall, Idaho; the Idaho Cattlemen's Association of Boise, Idaho; the Idaho Wool Growers Association

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