Mr. RIDDICK. Well, I do not think you could handle it! [Laughter] You would have to follow the vote. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Doctor. STATEMENT OF ANTHONY WAYNE SMITH-Resumed Mr. SMITH. May I say that we witnesses and audience appreciate the very fine sense of humor that the chairman and other members of the committee have shown on numerous occasions during this session. It helps to keep men reasonable, I think. I would just make one or two very brief remarks in closing. The witnesses that have expressed apprehension about mining, logging, grazing, and so forth in these wilderness areas, as protected by the wilderness bill-it is difficult to share their anxiety, because in the first place the areas are such a very small proportion of the total land area of the United States, 3 or 2 percent, or something of this kind, and the resources that are in them, if there be any, of importance, there, which might possibly take second place to the protection of scenic and recreational values, are not going to make or break this country. I am professionally reasonably familiar with the metal-mining situation in the United States, and such discoveries as may be made in the national parks and the wilderness areas are not going to make or break America at peace or at war. We are going to manage our resources in such a fashion that we have enough for our industrial area, or we are not, and these little extras are not going to make the difference. And the same is true for the timber resources of the country. We are building up the productivity of our national forests and our privately managed forests every day. We are still short of what we ought to be doing, but we are developing better methods of producing timber and wood products all the time, and that is where the solution to any possible shortage lies, and not in cutting down the national parks or the wilderness areas. And if we took that road, it would not last us very long anyway. We could do better, on all of these conservation funds, than to use up the last little remnants of wild country that we have in America.. And if that were not enough, this bill certainly makes plenty of provision for exceptions and opportunities to go in and prospect and mine and, as far as that is concerned, do whatever is necessary. The powers given to the President are given to the President to make provision for special uses in any event. So it is a very reasonable and very moderate piece of legislation, in our judgment. We think that it is the fruit of a lot of careful thought, the work of responsible men in the Senate, in the House, and outside, in conservation organizations. It crystallizes experience, the long record of testimony that you have, and we hope that it will now be possible for this legislation to move ahead and be enacted quickly. The CHAIRMAN. Are there questions? Senator DwORSHAK. One. How long have you lived in the District, Mr. Smith? Mr. SMITH. My home is in Pennsylvania. I was originally a resident of Pittsburgh, and I am now a resident of Franklin County, Pa. Senator DwORSHAK. How long have you lived in the District of Columbia? Mr. SMITH. I have had a residence in the District of Columbia for about 22 years. Senator DwORSHAK. Do you think it would be feasible to include some of the area within the District in this wilderness preservation area? Mr. SMITH. I would love it. The more you can get in it, the better I would like it. Senator DwORSHAK. The wildlife here and our affairs on the New Frontier, which has recently taken up residence here in the District? Mr. SMITH. Look, I have been in quite a few of these little struggles we have had to try to keep some of this green country in the District of Columbia. Any method that you can think of, sir. Senator DWORSHAK. It is too green, generally. That is the trouble with it. Mr. SMITH. Anything that you can do. Senator DwORSHAK. You get out West frequently and visit some of the public land States? Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; on foot and horse, too. I love it. It is beautiful. Senator DwORSHAK. Have you been in Idaho? Mr. SMITH. Idaho? Yes, I have been in it. I have not been there very long. I have not had a chance to stay there as long as I would like to. Senator DwORSHAK. We invite you to come in and inspect the 3 million acres we have in the primitive area. You come out there and spend 4 or 5 years looking over it, would you? Mr. SMITH. I would love to. Senator GRUENING. Mr. Smith, did I understand you to say that this bill merely preserved the existing wilderness areas and did not provide for the addition of any new areas? Did you say that? Mr. SMITH. Yes, I said that, sir. Senator GRUENING. Well, have you read the bill? Mr. SMITH. Oh, yes. I have read it. Senator GRUENING. Well, now, on page 5, I see on line 2 that: There shall be incorporated into the wilderness system, subject to the provisions of and at the time provided in this section, each portion of each park, monument, or other unit in the national park system which on the effective date of this Act embraces a continuous area of five thousand acres or more without roads. Is that not an addition to the wilderness area which does not exist now? Mr. SMITH. We are confused as to words. I was using the term "wilderness system" as including the parks. Senator GRUENING. You do not mean to say that when you are taking the area of a national park and saying this shall be wilderness, henceforth, that you are not adding something to the wilderness system, are you? Mr. SMITH. Well, if you define your terms so that "wilderness system" includes the national parks, all that you are doing here is adding an additional safeguard for the protection of the wilderness country in the national parks, bringing Congress in. Senator GRUENING. But the national parks are not wilderness. They have roads. They have structures. They are not in any sense wilderness; except that certain parts of them have not been invaded by roads. Mr. SMITH. Oh, yes, sir. Senator GRUENING. But when you provide that you can add areas of 5,000 acres in the park to the wilderness system, you are certainly adding something which is not there now, are you not? Mr. SMITH. I am perfectly willing to accept your language, Senator Gruening. If I accept that language, which I am perfectly willing to do, then certainly the bill does add to the wilderness system, yes. Senator GRUENING. Well, now, the same thing occurs in wildlife refuges. They are not now in the wilderness system, are they? Mr. SMITH. I think you have got a good point there. I do not think any of us would have used that term. I do not know. Maybe some of us would have used that term with respect to a good many of the wildlife refuges. Senator GRUENING. Merely to correct the record, it seems to me that this bill goes far beyond preserving the existing wilderness system. It opens up the possibility of adding tremendous areas. We have, for instance, in Alaska, three parks and monuments which are as large as Yellowstone-one is larger-and they are not wilderness areas now. Some of the areas perhaps should be, but they are not now. And you are proposing in this bill that they can be added under certain circumstances. And the same is true of all the wildlife refuges, which are frequently not wilderness at all. Mr. SMITH. I think I was directing my remarks at the time to the wilderness system in the national forests, particularly, and I probably should have made that clear. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. This will conclude the morning session. We will start again at 2 o'clock. Let me remind you that under the Legislative Reorganization Act there is a rule requiring manuscripts to be submitted in advance. We only had five witnesses this morning, allowing 30 minutes to a witness. Therefore please come this afternon with prepared text. Those who can should submit it for the record-we have 22 witnesses scheduled for the afternoon, and the number has grown very rapidly. And the rest of the witnesses will have to be limited a little bit in order to be able to finish this thing in a reasonable time today. We will start at 2 o'clock. (Whereupon, at 12:32 p.m., the committee recessed, to reconvene at 2 p.m., the same day.) AFTERNOON SESSION (The committee reconvened at 2 p.m., Senator Clinton P. Anderson, chairman of the committee, presiding.) The CHAIRMAN. We will be in session, please. We are very happy to have with us the Senator from Pennsylvania, a distinguished member of the Senate who was an outstanding mayor of the city of Philadelphia and had to wrestle with recreation problems in that post. We will value his views very highly. STATEMENT OF JOSEPH S. CLARK, JR., A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA Senator CLARK. As a sponsor of S. 174, I was delighted by the President's specific support of this legislation in his natural resources message of February 23. In one section of that message he speaks of the need to accelerate installation of soil conserving works to reduce erosion. It occurs to me that we might well speak of the wilderness bill as a soul conserving measure, designed to reduce erosion of the human spirit. As our country becomes more and more urbanized, as more and more of us become dependent on the services and comforts of metropolitan life, it is increasingly important that we preserve areas which have none of these services and comforts, so that we can achieve some realistic sense of the relationship of man and nature. We ought never to allow ourselves to become so accustomed to horizons of steel and concrete that we forget that there is earth beneath our feet and mountains, streams, and forest beyond our immediate field of vision. Just because so many of us are city dwellers, we are particularly in need of the perspective that wilderness and natural beauty can give us. Otherwise we are in danger of developing an outlook much like that expressed in the famous comic map, "A New Yorker's view of the United States," in which New York City and its environs take up a huge chunk of the country, and beyond are such minor landmarks as Chicago, Texas, Reno, and Hollywood. Americans are living longer and living more complex and fast moving lives. Leisure time is increasing and the period of retirement is increasing. Much of the minutiae with which we fill that time is not genuinely recreative and does not contribute to giving us a larger view of life and the world about us. The wilderness bill is designed to give us the opportunity to achieve that view. Its purpose is to preserve in perpetuity the grandeur that man cannot create. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Clark. Senator GRUENING. Mr. Chairman, I request permission to file for the record a statement from my distinguished colleague, Senator Bartlett. The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, it will be included. Mr. Chairman, the Honorable William A. Egan, Governor of Alaska, has wired me in reference to S. 174, a bill to establish a National Wilderness Preservation System. Governor Egan offers in his wire a suggestion which I and my col league from Alaska, Representative Ralph J. Rivers, endorse and commend to the committee. The text of the Governor's message is as follows: "Hon. E. L. BARTLETT, U.S. Senator, "Washington, D.C.: 1. “JUNEAU, ALASKA, February 25, 1961. "Re S. 174 State of Alaska is concerned that lacking positive action by the Congress in the form of a concurrent resolution opposing such recommendations, 46 million acres of national forests, parks, monuments, wildlife refuges and game ranges in Alaska could be committed to the wilderness system by administrative action of the Secretaries of Interior and Agriculture. Request provision that nature and boundaries of area considered for inclusion in the system be subject to cooperative study and classification of the land on the local State level prior to recommendations to the President and the Congress. Would urge your presentation these views at Senate committee hearings February 27-28. "WILLIAM A. EGAN, Governor.” Mr. Chairman, it is my belief that no better counsel could be sought in the classification of public land than that of the governmental officials of the State wherein it is situated. Speaking for myself and for Representative Rivers, I urge the committee to study the possible amendment of S. 174 to incorporate the Governor's suggestion. In this connection, I call to the attention of the committee that the term wilderness has, to the people of Alaska, a far deeper significance than it might to those who live in New York, Illinois, or even in the less populous Western States. Alaskans, unlike their fellow Americans, do not dominate the wilderness. To the contrary, they live on islands of civilization from which they pioneer the development of the vast untouched land masses which surround them. Because an overwhelming percentage of this land is in the public domain and because, as Governor Egan states, 46 million acres of it are included in the areas which could be preserved in a primitive condition under this bill, I hope that appropriate language may be incorporated to protect State interests in land classification. A wilderness classification should be considered only with the advice and perhaps even the consent of local officers of government who are aware of the resources requirements of a growing population. It seems to me wrong to proceed on a basis which would allow the same standards of measurement to govern the classification of lands located both in populous and frontier environments. The suggestion offered by Governor Egan offers protection against well intended but inappropriate land reclassification. I urge upon the committee its adoption. The CHAIRMAN. The Senator from Oregon, Mrs. Neuberger, who is one of the cosponsors of this bill and a fine and effective supporter of it, has sent me a letter and article which she requests be placed in the record. Without objection, it will be done. (The letter and article follow :) Hon. CLINTON P. ANDERSON, COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY, Chairman, Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs, U.S. SENATE, February 28, 1961. DEAR SENATOR ANDERSON: I regret that other business made it impossible for me to appear before your committee to testify on S. 174, the wilderness bill, that I am cosponsoring with you. This bill as introduced by us has my complete support. |