General HINES. We have been able to accomplish, so far, only the adoption of the uniform rate for hospitalization on our preliminary report to the Budget. The Budget itself, I think, has stopped certain expenditures, primarily to do, I believe, with the Navy and Public Health. For instance, before that step was undertaken, you recall, they contemplated a new naval hospital here in the District of Columbia. I think that project has either been canceled or deferred. They contemplated a hospital at Philadelphia, which has been completed, but not as large as originally contemplated; and it is to be used jointly by the Veterans' Administration and the Navy. We still have before the Board a further effort to consolidate, for instance, in such areas as New Mexico, where the Public Health has a large TB hospital and we have one. I cannot venture to predict what will be the final outcome, but I will say my efforts and those of one or two other members on that Board will be to avoid any area having more than one Federal hospital, if it can be accomplished, and having that hospital used jointly

PER DIEM COST FOR DOMICILIARY CARE OF VETERANS IN VETERANS' HOMES

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You spoke of per diem rates in reference to civil hospitals. What is the average cost of a veteran in a home, as distinct from a hospital?

care.

General HINES. Well, the per diem cost is 97 cents for domiciliary It costs us about $350 a year to take care of a man in a home. Mr. WOODRUM. Does that include everything-food, clothing, service?

General HINES. That is everything, including maintenance of plant.

Mr. WOODRUM. The overhead, and so on?

General HINES. Yes. I have a table here, which is a little too much, probably, to insert in the record, but if the Congressman would be interested I will hand him a list of the homes and hospitals, giving the number of rations, credit for farm products, cost of personnel, cost of supplies, cost by months. Would that answer it completely, Congressman?

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I think so; yes.

General HINES. And you can decide whether you wish to put it in the record or not.

PERSONNEL OF VETERANS' HOMES

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Has there been any material change in the number of civilian personnel employed in the administration of these homes?

General HINES. Yes.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. An increase or decrease?

General HINES. There has been an increase, and the increase is brought about for this reason: Originally they had practically no specifications as to what a man going into one of those homes was able to do. In other words, if he was temporarily disabled from earning a living, he was eligible for membership. To get into a home now he has to be 75 percent disabled, unable to carry on, and

have no other means of support. We found in many positions in the soldiers' homes, after the new regulation went in, which resulted in a drop of membership in those homes of a difference of some 7,000 beds, that many of the members were unable to perform the duties in the positions which they were occupying. We still use a number, but not as many as we did.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. How much of an executive staff is usually employed in respect to one of those homes? Is there any general rule?

General HINES. We have a manager, assistant manager, domiciliary officer, chief medical officer, an accountant, disbursing officer, supply officer, utility officer, and an adjutant. We have reduced the official staffs from what they were before, because the most of them have become combined facilities, where we eliminated at least one disbursing unit and one supply unit.

I wonder if the Congressman has a circular letter which is being sent out by some men in Chicago.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I probably have.

General HINES. Where he claims the cost of a veteran's care in a soldiers' home has increased to $2,000. Is that the one?

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Yes.

General HINES. Offhand I would say the cost of maintaining a man in a soldiers' home today is about $350 per year. But we have had a large number of those letters come in, and I was trying to discover what was the man's objective. He is a Spanish War veteran. Whether he is mentally sound, or not, I do not know, but he writes a pretty good letter. But I will be glad to send you a copy of the answer we have sent to some of the Congressmen, and that will probably give you everything there is in it.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Generally speaking, in your opinion, there is no basis for the feeling that these homes are overstaffed or have an excess of civilian personnel?

General HINES. No. As a matter of fact, our efforts have been to work so hard in the other direction that there has been complaint from some of the old soldiers' home people that we are tightening up too much. What we are trying to do is to eliminate overlapping. I would like to place in the record one thing I think the committee should know about. The operation of the soldiers' homes over a period of years was economical from year to year; but, if you want to get a correct picture of how badly some of them were run down, you ought to have the Director of Construction for the Veterans Administration come before you. We have found some of them in very bad shape and had to make large expenditures to prevent their collapsing entirely. Of course they are old. Some of those homes are 30 and 40 years old. But they had been allowed to run down, which, in my judgment, did not represent good economy in that respect.

Mr. WOODRUM. Or safe, either.

General HINES. No; it is unsafe. We have put in modern firealarm systems, fire apparatus; and we have improved the water supply and the sewerage and many things of that kind, and in many cases have replaced the election wiring, steam lines, and boilers.

NUMBER OF VETERANS AND DEPENDENTS (ALL WARS)

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Would you be good enough to insert in the record a table showing the number of veterans by classification? General HINES. You mean by wars?

"Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Yes; and the amount paid. General HINES. I will be glad to do that.

Active pension and compensation claims, all wars and peace time, Oct. 31, 1934

That table will follow your question, but just for your immediate information I will say the number of emergency officers that have been found entitled, up to October 31, under Public, 102, is 1,648. You will probably recall the old list was over 6,300. There is much complaint, however.

LOANS ON ADJUSTED-SERVICE CERTIFICATES

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Does it also appear in the table to be submitted how many adjusted-service certificates have been borrowed against?

General HINES. Yes. We have that in one of the tables now; but, if you wish it in any particular form, we shall put it in the record.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. If it is covered by the table, I think that is sufficient.

Mr. WOODRUM. You do not want it in the hearing?

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I do not care.

Mr. WOODRUM. Of course, these tables are not in the hearings unless they are put in.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. We have a right to put in any ones we want? Mr. WOODRUM. Yes.

General HINES. I have an idea, Congressman, after you review my statement and those tables that probably some questions will occur to you and, if you will let the clerk know, or let me know, I will be glad to prepare any supplemental data.

PERSONNEL EXCEPTED FROM CIVIL-SERVICE REQUIREMENTS

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. What exceptions, if any, are there regarding the personnel of the Veterans' Administration having to meet civilservice requirements?

General HINES. The only exceptions now are chairman, vice chairman and three associate members of the Board of Veterans' Appeals, and without regard to Civil Service I can appoint, of course, one confidential secretary, which I have not filled. And the total number of control officers is 10 and I have 5 of those utilized; because I feel that those positions of control officers are for men who must be specially qualified in work like investigating, and like an outstanding medical man which I will wish to use for some particular study. The rest of the group are under civil service with the exception of 3 assistant administrators, 1 executive assistant, 1 solicitor, 1 medical director, 1 director of construction, and 2 head attorneys as well as the positions at Johnson City, Tenn., which were excepted by Presidential order from civil service and put in schedule A. But practically all of the personnel at Johnson City, with the exception of the manager and one or two appointments, have a civil-service status; that is, they have a classified status.

You probably recall somewhat that when the soldiers' homes came into the consolidation, they were not classified. They were covered in under an Executive order by President Hoover into the civil service. Mr. WOODRUM. The Tennessee situation was a local problem?

General HINES. A local problem which I feel confident will be solved by the Civil Service in due course. They are working on it right now, and I think there will be no trouble. Personally I think they should all be civil service, although I am frank to admit it handicaps you at times.

PERSONNEL, WASHINGTON OFFICE

Mr. LAMBERTSON. What is the present number in the Washington office?

General HINES. Around 5,000. We have a table here that shows that in detail. In the central office, 1934, there were 5,120; 1935, 5,074. These are averages.

Mr. LAMBERTSON. Have you any way of estimating about the number that are drawing above $4,000, which would be the line between a clerk and some administrative officer of some kind, would it not? General HINES. There are 259.

Mr. LAMBERTSON. Not over 259 draw above $4,000?

General HINES. A very small number. Your tables will show, though, all the positions and grades in detail.

Mr. WOODRUM. There is a table that has been prepared, which we had last year when we were considering the economy bill, breaking down the whole Government service.

General HINES. That is contained in the committee print, and also will be in a printed copy of the Budget showing it by all departments.

USE OF EMERGENCY OFFICERS

Mr. LAMBERTSON. There was some criticism directed at the Bureau about the time Mr. Smith had so much publicity, to the effect that you had a large number of those emergency officers in there?

General HINES. I know what you refer to now. At that time there was quite a large number of men employed both here and in the field who had qualified under the old Emergency Officers' Retirement Act. There is a very few of them now.

Mr. WOODRUM. They changed the law on that?

General HINES. So that cured whatever was in your mind.

Mr. WOODRUM. General, after our committee is legally constituted, we may want to talk to you again. We are asking off the record now, you understand.

General HINES. I will be glad to come up at any time you need me, or if any member of the committee desires additional information over and above what has been furnished, or wishes that which we have furnished in a little different form, if he will let me know, I will be glad to let him have it. I appreciate the attitude of this committee and the help they have always given me in appropriations and other things involved. It is a big machine. I feel its functional organization is approximately correct. How well it does its work will depend on the personnel in the various positions. I have certain safeguards I have set up to make sure people do perform their duties. properly, but sometimes they fool me."

REGIONAL OFFICES

Mr. LAMBERTSON. There was a scare here a year ago among the regional officers to having a concentration of the records here in Washington.

General HINES. I feel, Congressman, our first step, whatever may come in the future on that, is that we should consolidate the activity in any one State that is going to be there for a long time, like a home