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Mr. ROBSION. I understand, but why do you not have the chief? If the chief can tell you, and you tell the board, why not have the chief tell the board himself, so that the other members of the board would get his point of view and the contact, and he may get theirs?

Mr. MCINTOSH. I may say that at the last board meeting it was suggested and I think it grew out of the suggestions here from the committee it was suggested that that be done, and it was concurred in by the standing committee.

Mr. ROBSION. When did Dr. Claxton meet with your committee?
Mr. MCINTOSH. Last Thursday and last Tuesday night.
Mr. ROBSION. When before that?

Mr. MCINTOSH. I am not sure whether he was present at last month's meeting or not. I do not know.

Mr. ROBSION. When did the Cabinet members meet with your board?

Mr. MCINTOSH. They met one of them was present-on last Thursday.

Mr. ROBSION. Before that?

Mr. MCINTOSH. The month before.

Mr. ROBSION. Who was that that met with you?

Mr. MCINTOSH. Since I have been on the

Mr. ROBSION. Which members of the Cabinet have met with you and which have not since you have been a member of the board? Mr. MCINTOSH. I have been at numerous meetings where Secretary Wilson, Secretary Houston

Mr. ROBSION. I am talking of meetings of the board now, Mr. McIntosh.

Mr. MCINTOSH. Well, I am talking about

Mr. ROBSION. I am talking about board meetings. I am not talking about you and one or two members, but the regular board meetings.

Mr. MCINTOSH. That is what I am talking about. Secretary Houston was generally there. It is exceptional for him to be away. Secretary Wilson has been there on numerous occasions at board meetings. Secretary Redfield was present often. Secretary Alexander has not missed a meeting that I know of since he became Secretary of Com

merce.

Mr. TOWNER. He learned to be efficient in Congress.

Mr. HITCHCOCK. He is present at all meetings. Secretary Meredith was present last month. Secretary Wilson was present the month before. Secretary Meredith was not present this month because he is in the hospital.

Mr. ROBSION. Now, Mr. McIntosh, there has not been just the proper unity or uniform or good relationship between the members of your standing committee, has there?

Mr. MCINTOSH. There is no discord that I know of.

Mr. ROBSION. Well, you do not act together?

Mr. MCINTOSH. We do not always see alike.

Mr. ROBSION. Do you not differ on most of the important questions

that present themselves?

Mr. MCINTOSH. Oh, no; I should say that the standing committee has been noted for its unanimity of feeling and action.

Mr. ROBSION. Well, do you act upon Mr. Lamkin's recommendations, substantially?

Mr. MCINTOSH. Yes; nearly always favorably.

Mr. ROBSION. But he does not act upon yours?

Mr. MCINTOSH. He can not carry out our suggestions immediately, and sometimes when we give it to him simply as a suggestion, he might not agree, but when the board or the standing committee issues an order Mr. Lamkin is very prompt in carrying that out.

Mr. ROBSION. Now, Mr. McIntosh, we have spent several weeks here in hearing testimony. Have you got any good ideas that will help us in the administration of this great problem?

Mr. MCINTOSH. I have to say this, that it has been illuminating. Mr. ROBSION. Has it put any pep into the work?

Mr. MCINTOSH. Well, I should think that there would be an after effect of at least trying to cure the obvious defects that have been charged to exist.

Mr. ROBSION. Have you started to do that yet?

Mr. MCINTOSH. Oh, yes; there has been action taken already.

Mr. ROBSION. So you, since this evidence has come out, as to the defects, and so on, you have already put on foot plans to correct it. Now, what have you done along that line?

Mr. MCINTOSH. Mr. Lamkin visited the New York office this week with a view to getting first-hand knowledge of the situation there, and proposes to make such changes there as are necessary and such recommendations to the board as he thinks

Mr. ROBSION. Is that all? That is Mr. Lamkin acting. What else has been done to correct these conditions that have been brought forth in this investigation?

Mr. MCINTOSH. I do not know of anything.

Mr. ROBSION. So it has not had much effect, has it, if it is just the mere sending of Mr. Lamkin to New York to look after the office up there?

Mr. MCINTOSH. I do not know of anything particularly that has been set up as the result of this investigation.

Mr. ROBSION. So the investigation has not helped you, has it?
Mr. MCINTOSH. I said I thought it had.

Mr. ROBSION. I want to know how, and what you have done to help it-what they have done?

Mr. MCINTOSH. There has not been anything. The matters have been discussed at the board meetings. For instance, at the last board meeting it was suggested that a very definite policy with respect to the emphasis to be placed on academic and industrial train ing, or shop training, should be established; that there must be a well-defined policy with respect to the soldiers

Mr. ROBSION. Did that grow out of this investigation?

Mr. MCINTOSH. I think it did. I would have to credit it to that. Mr. ROBSION. Go on and tell us what it has done and what has been the result.

Mr. MCINTOSH. That matter is to be looked into and studied carefully and further discussed by the board.

Mr. ROBSION. That is just preliminary discussion. I want you to state something you have done-action that has been taken.

Mr. MCINTOSH. That was an action that was taken. It was made

a matter of record.

Mr. ROBSION. You said you had discussion, but you did not know what you are going to do.

Mr. MCINTOSH. We are going to arrive at a decision in a short time with respect to that.

Mr. ROBSION. As far as we know or you know, the decision may be opposite to any progress or any further development?

Mr. MCINTOSH. Well, it would represent the conclusion of the full board.

Mr. ROBSION. Well, have you speeded up the work any? That is what the people want-speeding up. Since the 1st of March has it been speeded up, or is it still dragging along like it was-as these witnesses describe?

Mr. MCINTOSH. I have nothing to offer that there has been instituted particularly since this investigation has been going on-a speeding up of the work.

Mr. ROBSION. If it has not speeded you up any-this investigation-has it slowed you down? You can not stand in one place? Mr. MCINTOSH. No.

Mr. ROBSION. I want to know about it-which way you are moving.

Mr. MCINTOSH. The investigation, of course, did in a measure slow up the work while we were here and giving our time to this. Mr. ROBSION. Why is it that your report shows more cases passed on since this investigation started? You have increased 100 per cent. If it slowed you down, what did it slow you down in?

Mr. MCINTOSH. The expected accelaration in putting men into training as the result of instructions given months ago.

Mr. ROBSION. Mr. McIntosh, I, just for one, feel that this investigation has rather wound us all up and put some pep into this work. I would like to know if it has put any pep in the board.

Mr. MCINTOSH. I think this, Mr. Chairman, that as far as the action of this board is concerned in this work, I think it was running at top-notch speed, and has been all the way along.

Mr. ROBSION. But it was run wrong in some directions, was it not? Mr. MCINTOSH. Well, I do not know, as a matter of general policy, that it has been.

Mr. ROBSION. When you speak of the board, you do not mean that the New York office and other places were running at top notch? They were not running in high, were they?

Mr. MCINTOSH. No; there has been ground for criticism; there is no question about that.

Mr. ROBSION. Well, I just want to know if it has been moving.

Mr. MCINTOSH. I say this, that, of course, we have got a new angle; we have got these specific things that have been brought out here, the criticisms, and certainly it is going to be our purpose to look into every one of them and see if they can not be corrected.

Mr. ROBSION. I was trying to find out if criticism could help your board or not.

Mr. MCINTOSH. I should think that it would put the board more on its guard.

Mr. ROBSION. I would like for you to just come out and say so.

Mr. MCINTOSH. I have tried to agree with you and say that I think it would put the board on its guard to do a more perfect job. Mr. ROBSION. It would, but did it do it?

Mr. MCINTOSH. So far, I have not seen so much evidence of it.

Mr. ROBSION. If you have not been helped now, how can you be helped, if it has not had any effect yet?

Mr. MCINTOSH. It has in promulgating orders-

Mr. ROBSION. No; you said it might take effect on the board. If it has not taken any effect yet, if it has not settled down and settled in and sunk in in six weeks, how could it

Mr. MCINTOSH. We have only had the one board meeting, and all the time that we had was taken up by discussion

Mr. ROBSION. Well, for speeding up this work it does not require a board meeting, does it?

Mr. MCINTOSH. No; I do not think so.

Mr. ROBSION. That is the main point, to speed it up and get the boy in training at the proper place. I am very anxious that that be done. That is all.

Mr. BURROUGHS. I do not know but what you have already stated it, but how often does the board itself meet?"

Mr. MCINTOSH. Once a month.

Mr. BURROUGHS. But your standing committee is in session practically all the time?

Mr. MCINTOSH. Yes, sir; now, since we have this rehabilitation work.

Mr. BURROUGHS. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all. You are excused. The committee stands adjourned.

(Whereupon the committee adjourned.)

(The following letter contains the information requested relative to the proposed emergency loan fund for soldiers :)

Hon. SIMEON D. FESS,

FEDERAL BOARD FOR VOCATIONAL EDUCATION,
Washington, May 18, 1920.

Chairman Committee on Education,

House of Representatives, Washington D. C.

MY DEAR DR. FESS: In compliance with your request for some figures relating to the emergency loan fund for soldiers who come within our jurisdiction, I am offering you herewith statement furnished by Mr. Aronoff, who has charge of the Elks fund and the Red Cross fund used for this purpose. These figures are taken from his books as of May 1, 1920.

"From March, 1919, to May, 1920, there has been a total number of loans amounting to 28,262. The average number of loans per month is 2,018. The total amount loaned is $494,944.97. The average amount loaned (average taken over period of last seven months) is $41,519.83. Total refunds equal $353,756.54, which approximates 714 per cent of the total amount loaned. The average refunds per month taken over the period of the last seven months is $37,457.82. It will be understood here, however, that the fund must be in operation many months before refunds reach the point where they are so close to the amount loaned.

"To show you what has been done in the Elks fund alone I have to advise on April 30, 1920, the original $200,000 fund of the Elks war-relief commission had turned over twice and was on its third revolution, there having been loaned from it $486.863.47; $353,576.54 had been returned. This leaves outstanding on the Elks fund slightly in excess of $133,000. Added to this is approximately $30,000 spent for subsistence and school expenses of disabled boys trained under the fund on account of ineligibility for training under the vocational rehabilitation act. These boys are all American citizens, but are not eligible for training by the board because of their discharge from an army of the Allies. It will thus be seen that the Elks' fund to-day is operating on about $40,000. It was therefore necessary to augment the loan fund by the fund W. Z.-36 appropriated by the American National Red Cross. This fund amounts to $75,000. It was put into operation about the middle of April, and

no essential figures are therefore available. The Elks fund was permitted to remain in six districts and the Red Cross instituted to the remaining eight. Although less than $30,000 of the Red Cross fund has actually been drawn from the bank, about $35,000 has been loaned out on drafts to the boys and is only awaiting clearance through the banks of the country. More than $60,000 has already been allotted to me by the Red Cross, of which I have allocated about $42,000 in the districts."

In view of the increasing numbers which are coming within our care, and in view of the tendency to liberalize with respect to the care of the disabled soldier, and in view of the fact that this relates to a loan fund only, I am of the opinion that Congress should provide a fund which may meet more adequately the growing demands for this relief. Five hundred thousand dollars, therefore, does not seem to me to be excessive for this purpose.

I wish, also, to call your attention to the necessity for making some provision for the training and care of discharged American boys who served in the armies of the Allies. I think this has been called to the attention of the committee, but I take the occasion here to reinforce the justice of this claim. Sincerely, yours,

C. F. MCINTOSH, Member Federal Board for Vocational Education.

Mr. UEL W. LAMKIN,

AFFIDAVIT OF H. L. SMITH.

BLOOMINGTON, IND., May 10, 1920.

Chief, Federal Board for Vocational Education,

Washington, D. C.

DEAR MR. LAMKIN: In the first paragraph on page 564 of hearing before the Committee on Education, House of Representatives, Sixty-sixth Congress, second session, Saturday, April 10, 1920, Mr. Griffin is quoted as having testified as follows in regard to the reasons for his transfer from the position of district vocational officer in New York to the central office in Washington:

"Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason given by Dr. Smith, Chief of the Division of Rehabilitation, was that my attitude toward the soldier was entirely too sympathetic, and that I had put in too much time interviewing soldiers and not enough into administration work; that the condition of the appropriation was such that more restrictive measures would have to be taken in regard to the rehabilitation of soldiers."

I wish to state that if Mr. Griffin is correctly quoted, he is in error in this testimony. Mr. Griffin was asked to give up the position as district vocational officer wholly on the ground of inefficiency in the administration of that office, as was testified to by several different persons, all of which testimony you will find on file in the central office. I went over with Mr. Griffin an analysis of what were considered his administrative weaknesses, including his unwise distribution of time and ineffective administrative methods. In my conference with Mr. Griffin in regard to his transfer I did not state, neither did I imply, that he had been too sympathetic with disabled soldiers. I commended him for the interest that he said he had taken in the soldiers and told him that his transfer to the central office on the case board would give the Federal board an opportunity to realize on this quality to the highest advantage. I told Mr. Griffin, too, that if he would prefer to stay in the New York office in a similar capacity, that transfer would be made. Mr. Griffin chose-and, in my judg ment, chose wisely-to be transferred to the central office rather than to take up a different line of work in the New York office.

Very truly, yours,

H. L. SMITH.

I solemly swear this document to be a true copy of the original. [SEAL.]

My commission expires February 13, 1925.

STATE OF INDIANA, Monroe County, ss:

MARYE E. LARKIN,
Notary Public.

Before me, Kearney G. Buskirk, a notary public in and for said county and State, personally appeared H. L. Smith, who, being duly sworn on his oath,

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