in the country, and therefore we will vary our rules, and any member of the committee who desires to ask the doctor a question will be permitted to do it.

Mr. TOWNER. Doctor, the difference between the school that has been established there in Pittsburgh from the schools already established is that this school was especially prepared for this work, and the universities have only taken it up as one of the branches of their work; is not that true?

Mr. CONNELLEY. Yes; I will answer that question by saying, yes. The universities have not, in any of the universities of the country that I am familiar with, the trade training, and they are only taking that as a side issue, and, as a side issue, they do not take the interest in it. It is a school also of specialists. On the other hand, the school that we have is one that has been adapted to them and equipped for them, and that is why this school, when it is made a special school for that work, is better equipped for it than most any school that I know. If the university, answering your question, is equipped for mechanical work, it is equipped on an engineering line. There is more theory than there is of actual practice, and that is why that is done.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will stand adjourned until 10 o'clock to-morrow morning.

(Whereupon the committee adjourned until Thursday, May 13, 1920, at 10 o'clock a. m.)

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION,
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

Thursday, May 13, 1920.

The committee met at 10 o'clock a. m., Hon. Simeon D. Fess (chairman) presiding.

TESTIMONY OF MR. P. H. SMILEY.

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Smiley, give your full name and present address.

Mr. SMILEY. P. H. Smiley, 143 East Thirty-ninth Street, New York City.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Smiley, tell the committee your present position.

Mr. SMILEY. I am at present in charge of the training and advisement section in New York City, district No. 2-supervisor of training and advisement.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you held that position?

Mr. SMILEY. I have held that position since November 24. I came with the Federal board on October 29 and remained in Washington about two weeks.

The CHAIRMAN. What year?

Mr. SMILEY. 1919. I stayed there looking into the situation and becoming familiar with the work, and about the 10th of November I went to the Boston office and remained there until the 17th, also looking into the work there, and from that place I went to the New York office, and on the 24th took active charge of the training and advisement section.

The CHAIRMAN. On the 24th of what month?

Mr. SMILEY. November, 1919.

The CHAIRMAN. And you have been there since?

Mr. SMILEY. I have.

The CHAIRMAN. What had been your work before you went with the board?

Mr. SMILEY. I was State director of vocational education in Maine. The CHAIRMAN. How long had you been in that work?

Mr. SMILEY. I had been in that work and in industrial supervision work for three years.

The CHAIRMAN. And what was your training before you went to that position?

Mr. SMILEY. I have had experience in industrial work since 1909, approximately; educational preparation at Missouri, Kansas State, Wisconsin universities, and Columbia University.

The CHAIRMAN. You are now the supervisor of training?
Mr. SMILEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And have been since November of last year?
Mr. SMILEY. Since November 24.

The CHAIRMAN. Who is your immediate superior?

Mr. SMILEY. Mr. Clark, the district vocational officer.

The CHAIRMAN. What about delays in reaching training since you have been there?

Mr. SMILEY. I would make the statement this way, that there have been some delays due to the requirements for legal evidence that the man is eligible for training, and calling for proper legal evidence, either copies of discharge, compensation or the AGO Form 17, 213, or 226, or whatever it may be, to establish the disability and to connect it with the service. There are many types of disabilities which do not show on the discharge and do not show on the AGO Forms and it is necessary in that case to look into it thoroughly and through some means or other establish the fact that it was either aggravated or incurred in service. That is one reason for delay. A second reason for delay is the fact that men come in with certain disabilities which require extensive medical examination. Tuberculous cases require that the men at least have an arrested case rather than active and considering that, the men are required to take examinations a month apart to be sure that it is arrested before they are put in training; otherwise, they might break down in training. There are even other delays or so-called delays, I do not consider them real delays, in advising the men in the type of work they are to take up. Some men would like to have their advisement completed the day they come into the board offices. In many cases that is inadvisable. They can not make the decision in one day. You will find that the number of changes made from time to time indicates that clearly. I would state that they are the general conditions and they are called delays, but they are not delays.

The CHAIRMAN. Those conditions you think are inevitable?
Mr. SMILEY. I think they are, under any conditions.

The CHAIRMAN. Have there been any delays since you have been in the office that were inexcusable?

Mr. SMILEY. I would say that there have been cases when the men have not been placed in training as promptly as they should have been, due to the fact that the folders when being called for may have been somewhere in the binding department, or the name may have been misspelled when the case was sent for, or the man may have left and returned to his home without one getting the case. I do know that those are facts.

The CHAIRMAN. We have had some testimony here to that effect which would indicate that there was not sufficient care in the office; that the evidence of one soldier, for example, might be placed where it could not be found, being at the bottom of the pack.

Mr. SMILEY. Those cases will be found to be most nearly always from men who are able neither to write their names nor read: also some men can hardly spell their own names. Errors are made in that way, and when you call for a case spelled in one particular way,

it may not be located. That has caused criticism, but it is not the fault of the Federal board. It is something that can not be avoided. The CHAIRMAN. Are the delays that you mentioned a moment ago that you thought were inevitable bound to continue with the progress of the work?

Mr. SMILEY. A part of them will continue regardless of any action on the part of the board unless the law itself is changed.

The CHAIRMAN. Could you specify what change of law you would recommend?

Mr. SMILEY. I would say that if the law were changed for every man who had received compensation and he was made eligible for training under section 2 of the law, that the majority of such delays would be eliminated, because then it would be based on compensation and not primarily on vocational handicap.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Smiley, Judge Towner is called away for a few moments and before he leaves I want him to ask you some questions.

Mr. TOWNER. I want to ask you, Mr. Smiley, about this matter: You spoke of the difficulty of determining whether or not a disability was incurred in the service and I would like to have you state to the committee what is the attitude of the board-I mean the divisional board with regard to such cases. Is it to require technically exact and conclusive evidence, or do they adopt a more liberal policy?

Mr. SMILEY. A much more liberal policy. We take the affidavit of the man, if further evidence can not be secured, and put the main in training and then send that to the War Department or to the central office here to secure the evidence.

Mr. TOWNER. It is not only those injuries or disabilities that may be incurred in the service, but if they are increased——

Mr. SMILEY. Increased or aggravated.

Mr. TOWNER (continuing). Or aggravated while in the service, they are also in the privileged class?

Mr. SMILEY. Yes.

Mr. TOWNER. Take, for instance, a case of incipient tuberculosis which a man might have had before he went into the service and which might never have developed if he had not gone into the service, but which because of his service and exposure and, perhaps, privation which he may have suffered was aggravated and brought on, in such a case as that, where the evidence would fairly show such a condition, what would be the attitude with regard to such a case?

Mr. SMILEY. If the X-ray plate shows that that man has had active TB subsequent to discharge from the service, even to that extent, the man is granted training.

Mr. TOWNER. Then you can say that in so far as your experience and observation is concerned, that while you have been with the New York office it has been rather inclined to a liberal course of action with regard to such matters?

Mr. SMILEY. All instructions I have heard from the office are to give the man the benefit of the doubt.

Mr. TOWNER. Is that the talk of your superiors?

Mr. SMILEY. It is.

Mr. TOWNER. Is that the talk among the rank and file of the personnel?