just as fully as was consistent with bringing them to bear on the proper and important problems. Mr. CANNON. The gentleman realizes that he is challenging an axiom which has been conceded practically for many years, that dictatorship produces the best leadership for war purposes? Dr. BUSH. In this field I intend to challenge it. I think it will be thoroughly demonstrated when the full story is told, that the democratic form of government is more efficient in fighting a scientific war, and I think we will prove it before we get through, when we make our full comparisons with Germany. My point here is that it has been a very serious race. Now, we have been at it for 5 years, and some of the men that have been at it are getting tired, and it is not strange that they should, because it has been a very intense matter. Now, we look forward to the collapse of Germany and the continuation of the war against Japan. The war against Japan has its elements of danger and seriousness. SUICIDE BOMBERS Certainly the threat of the suicide bombers is a really serious threat from scientific and technical standpoints, and there are others, but by and large the war against Japan differs, for the end result is not in doubt. Therefore, we look upon our responsibility this way in connection with the war against Japan: We should certainly do everything that is needed, everything that can go into effective and actual use in the field against Japan, that will reduce casualties or that will shorten the war, but we do not feel that this organization, built up in the way that it is constructed as a temporary organization, should attempt to do more than that in view of the responsibilities of its individuals toward reconversion and the reeducation of returning veterans and other matters that need the attention of scientific men. So, we have built this budget on the basis that we would do against Japan all of the things which, in our estimation, and those of the services, are of such a nature that they can have a real effect on the war, but we do not plan that this organization will do research that is of a post-war nature. MEDICAL RESEARCH PROGRAM Now, there is one exception to this, the medical research program which is quite different, and it is different for a number of reasons. For one thing, the lag is not present that is present on weapons between the development and the use. The medical result can normally go into use immediately, and also a great deal of our medical program today has to do with the health of returning veterans. Our malaria program, for example, is under way with the realization that we have, perhaps, 750,000 men in the field who must be cured of malaria. Moreover, the medical research program is not too much of an effort for this country in peacetimes, sponsored by the Federal Government, and carried out under private auspices. It amounts to $7,000,000 a year. Mr. TABER. NO; it is a good deal more than that, Doctor. Mr. TABER. Oh, yes. Dr. BUSH. No; our medical program. Mr. TABER. Oh, you mean your organization's medical program? Dr. BUSH. Yes. Mr. TABER. I see. Dr. BUSH. And that, you see, is not carried on in Government laboratories, but in private laboratories. Mr. TABER. Is it in cooperation with the Public Health Service's activity? Dr. BUSH. Yes. Mr. TABER. And with full knowledge of what they are doing? Dr. BUSH. Oh, yes. We will come to that as fully as you may wish. We have, of course, representatives of the three Surgeon Generals on our Committee on Medical Research, and we have other ways of tying in, but my point is that the amount of work that we are doing in the medical field seems to me not to be a large amount considering the importance of the problems even for peacetime so that we have planned on the medical program not to cut it back. We hope, sometime, there will be plans made so that we can turn that program over to whatever organization may be constructed for that type of research in peace. If that opportunity offers, we will turn it over. If there is no such opportunity we will, at the proper time, terminate it. Those matters have all been in our minds, and here is what we have arrived at: In O. S. R. D., there is the Committee on Medical Research where we made no change. In the Office of Field Service we made no change, and, we have made no change, in the case of our administrative budget. The bulk of the appropriation is in the National Defense Research Committee, so that the principal point to be handled is the allocation for the National Defense Research Committee, and the story there is as follows: In 1945, in this present fiscal year, we are spending $105,000,000 for the projects of that committee. For 1946 on a two-front basis, and that is the basis on which we are instructed to estimate by the Bureau of the Budget, after consideration with the Bureau of the Budget we arrived at a figure of approximately $78,000,000 for the corresponding work. Now, on a one-front basis, on reconsideration, we have arrived at the figure of $65,000,000 for N. D. R. C. That includes about $10,000,000 to $20,000,000 for work which we would expect some time during the year to transfer to the services, work that is of such a nature that it should continue into the peace, transferring with it our appropriations for the balance of the year. Then, as I say, if this proves to be more than is needed, we will not spend it all. If the war goes more rapidly than we expect, we would not attempt to carry the program as far; we would taper off more rapidly. If, on the other hand, the war went very slowly indeed, and we found we were out of balance in the other direction, we would have to come back to you gentlemen later and tell you so. It is, however, I wish to reemphasize, a difficult matter to estimate at this time, and we will be quite content with whatever your judgment may be as to what we need today, and adapt ourselves accordingly. RETURNS ON MONEY SPENT BY OFFICE OF SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT Mr. CANNON. Doctor, you have spent a lot of money. Dr. BUSH. Yes, sir. Mr. CANNON. And you have had the cooperation of, and you have been able to enlist the services of, the most eminent scientists in America and in the world, and, in my opinion, the United States and civilization have gotten more out of the money that you have spent than the money that has been spent in almost any other agency connected with the war. WORK OF OFFICE OF SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT TO BE CARRIED ON DURING POST-WAR PERIOD I was interested in hearing you say that much of your work, or, at least, some of your discoveries should be carried on and would be of some service in the economic and industrial world following the war. What percentage of your work do you think is exclusively for the benefit of the war, the usefulness of which will cease with the cessation of the war, and what percentage do you think has a future in the post-war period? Dr. BUSH. It is very difficult to frame an answer to that, because almost nothing that we do is without some of its post-war implications. For example, one would say offhand, that work on chemical warfare would be entirely for the war effort, and that one could hardly expect out of that effort to get any permanent benefits, out of chemistry devoted, for example, to the development of war gases. We have carried that work on very aggressively, as you know, as an insurance against the breaking out of chemical warfare, and we are still keeping those groups busy and available as an insurance. Yet, out of that have come several things in connection with insecticides, and so forth, that will have permanent post-war value. So I think it is not possible to make a percentage estimate. I would say that almost everything that we have done has some post-war implications to it, and a little of it has very large post-war implications. Mr. WOODRUM. In the field of electronics that would be true. Dr. BUSH. In the field of électronics there are large post-war implications of course. The whole development in that field will render air transport a very different thing. Mr. CANNON. While you yourself do not expect your organization to carry this on into the post-war period, you think it should be turned over to some agency which will develop it? Dr. BUSH. That part of it which should be carried over into the peace should be turned over at the appropriate time to permanent organizations, either to the services themselves or to a civilian supporting organization, organized for permanent operation, but that, of course, will be only a fraction of what we are doing. No one thinks that peacetime research on military matters will be of the same size as the effort at the present time, or anywhere near it. There is one more thing that I would like to say before going on, with reference to this confidential report, that I forgot to say previously. There is one matter that is not in here, but which I can now include, and which is a very interesting affair, in connection with the development of a particular weapon. At the appropriate time, when ever you might wish to do so, off the record, I would like to tell you that story, because I think it is interesting enough that the committee would like to hear it. Mr. CANNON. Suppose you give it to us at this time. (Discussion off the record.) SPECIAL PROJECTS, NATIONAL DEFENSE RESEARCH COMMITTEE Mr. CANNON. Taking up the estimate in detail, Doctor, on page 2, the table of special projects, National Defense Research Committee, indicates your original estimated cost was $78,223,686. It is my understanding that you have reduced that something like 40 percent below the current year. Dr. BUSH. Yes. Mr. CANNON. Would you take up each of those items there, at least those which you consider of importance, seriatim, and tell us something about them, briefly? Dr. BUSH. May I ask Dean Moreland to do that? Mr. CANNON. Yes. Dr. BUSH. He has also the tabulation of the allocation of this among divisions on the basis of restimate which we have just made, and if I may, I will hand him that document. Mr. CANNON. Will you come up here, Dean Moreland, beside the reporter? At this point we will insert page 2 in the record. Mr. TABER. That is a revision of page 2? Mr. CANNON. That is a revision of page 2 of the justifications, to conform to the estimate which came down this morning, under date of April 28. Mr. CANNON. All right, Dr. Moreland. Dr. MORELAND. I do not know just how much detail you want. I will relate this with not a great deal of detail. Mr. CANNON. Just briefly, or at least whatever you consider most important. BALLISTIC RESEARCH Dr. MORELAND. Now, division 1 we had originally estimated at $3,530,000. We are now estimating it at $3,000,000. Mr. TABER. What is that division? Dr. MCRELAND. I suggest that this be off the record. (Discussion off the record.) Dr. MORELAND. That is the type of thing this committee works on. It has made some very great accomplishments already. EFFECT OF IMPACTS AND EXPLOSIONS On division 2, the figure we gave you was $1,800,000. We are now reducing that to $1,250,000. I do not need to say a great deal about that division. (Discussion off the record.) Mr. TABER. I am going to ask you to tell as to each of these whether your activity is pretty well completed. Dr. MORELAND. In this particular case, we think we will have a considerable amount of activity during the coming year. SPECIAL PROJECTILES Now, division 3, which had been estimated at $9,250,000, we are now estimating at $8,000,000. (Discussion off the record.) ORDNANCE ACCESSORIES Dr. MORELAND. The next division, division 4, we had in for $4,250,000. We now have it in for $4,000,000. That is not very much of a cut, and I can tell you why, off the record. (Discussion off the record.) NEW MISSILES Dr. MORELAND. For Division No. 5 the amount originally requested was $3,540,000. We are now asking for $3,000,000. We are again continuing that at very nearly the same volume, because it is primarily for use against the Japanese. (Discussion off the record.) Dr. MORELAND. This is an activity that might be expected to continue in peacetime, but at a materially lower level than is now in progress. SUBSURFACE WARFARE For division 6 the estimate included in the original Budget statement was $3,600,000. We are now reducing that to $1,250,000. Dr. BUSH. I should like to call your attention to the fact that the estimate for 1945 was $7,600,000 on that. That is one thing that is being cut. |