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Mr. CANNoN. Doctor, you have spent a lot of money.

Dr. BUSH. Yes, sir.

Mr. CANNoN. And you have had the cooperation of, and you have been able to enlist the services of, the most eminent scientists in America and in the world, and, in my opinion, the United States and civilization have gotten more out of the money that you have spent than the money that has been spent in almost any other agency connected with the war.


I was interested in hearing you say that much of your work, or, at least, some of your discoveries should be carried on and would be of some service in the economic and industrial world following the war. What Fo of your work do you think is exclusively for the benefit of the war, the usefulness of which will cease with the cessation of the war, and what percentage do you think has a future in the post-war period? Dr. BUSH. It is very difficult to frame an answer to that, because almost nothing that we do is without some of its post-war implications For example, one would say offhand, that wo on chemical warfare would be entirely for the war effort, and that one could hardly expect out of that effort to get any permanent benefits, out of chemistry devoted, for example, to the development of war gases. We have carried that work on very aggressively, as you know, as an insurance against the breaking out of #. warfare, and we are still keeping those groups busy and available as an insurance. Yet, out of that have come several things in connection with insecticides, and so forth, that will have permanent post-war value. So I think it is not possible to make a percentage estimate. I would say that almost everything that we have done has some post-war im: plications to it, and a little of it has very large post-war implications. Mr. WooDRUM. In the field of electronics that would be true. Dr. BUSH. In the field of electronics there are large post-war impli. cations of course. The whole development in that field will render air transport a very different thing. Mr. CANNoN. While you yourself do not expect your organization to carry this on into the post-war period, you think it should be turned over to some agency which will develop it? Dr. BUSH. That part of it which should be carried over into the peace should be turned over at the appropriate time to permanent or. ganizations, either to the services themselves or to a civilian supporting o organized for permanent operation, but that, of course, will be only a fraction of what we are doing. No one thinks that peace. time research on military matters will be of the same size as the effort at the present time, or anywhere near it. There is one more thing that I would like to say before going on, with reference to this confidential report, that I forgot to say previously. There is one matter that is not in here, but which I can now include, and which is a very interesting affair, in connection with the development of a particular weapon. *: the appropriate time, whenever you might wish to do so, off the record, I would like to tell you

that story, because I think it is interesting enough that the committee

would like to hear it.
Mr. CANNoN. Suppose you give it to us at this time.
(Discussion off the record.)


Mr. CANNoN. Taking up the estimate in detail, Doctor, on page 2, the table of special projects, National Defense Research Committee, indicates your original estimated cost was $78,223,686. It is my understanding that you have reduced that something like 40 percent below the current year.

Dr. BUSH. Yes.

Mr. CANNoN. Would you take up each of those items there, at least those which you consider of importance, seriatim, and tell us something about them, briefly?

Dr. BUSH. May I ask Dean Moreland to do that?

Mr. CANNoN. Yes. -

Dr. BUSH. He has also the tabulation of the allocation of this among divisions on the basis of restimate which we have just made, and if I may, I will hand him that document.

Mr. CANNoN. Will you come up here, Dean Moreland, beside the reporter?

At this point we will insert page 2 in the record.

Mr. TABER. That is a revision of page 22

Mr. CANNoN. That is a revision of page 2 of the justifications, to conform to the estimate which came down this morning, under date of April 28.

Special projects, National Defense Research Committee

--- $105,725,642 -- 40,725, 642 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 65,000.000

:* -is: Estimate, Estimate,

Division t 1 1946

1. Ballistic Research. - - - - $2,718, 400 $3,000,000 2. Effects of Impacts and ives------------------- 1,827,400 1,250,000 3. Special Projectiles--- - 10,389,000 8,000,000 4. Ordnance Accessories----------- ---------------- 3,751,600 4,000,000 5. New Missiles------------------- ------------- 4,714, 200 3,000,000 5. Subsurface Warfare------------- 7, 596, 200 1,250,000 7. Fire Control-------------------- 3,049,800 1,750,000 8. Explosives---- 3,860,400 2,700,000 9. Chemistry------------- 1,282,700 750,000 10. Absorbents and Aerosols 1,027,400 500,000 11. Chemical Engineering-- 2,563,900 1,000,000 12. Tra rtation Development- 150, 500 -------------13. Electrical Communication------ - 489,200 1,000,000 14. Radar-------------------------- - 42, 118, 342 25,000,000 15. Radio Coordination------------- 9, 165,400 6,000,000 16. Optics-------------------------- 2,000, 800 1,250,000 17. Physics---------- 2,492,000 1,250,000 18. War Metallurgy 1,750,800 750,000 19. Miscellaneous. ------- 1,008,800 250,000 Applied Mathematics Pane 1,713,600 900,000 §. Psychology Panel- 839, 200 500,000 C n's Office------------------------------------------------------------------------- 50,000 £ommittee on Propagation.-------------------------- - 391, 200 300,000 Committee on Tropical Deterioration....--------------------- - 342,200 200,000 Engineering and Transition Office............. - 434, 400 350,000 Vacuum Tube Development Committeelllllllllllllllllll-l - 48, 200 -------------Total.----------------------------------------------------------------- 105,725,642 65,000,000



Mr. CANNoN. All right, Dr. Moreland. Dr. MoRELAND.. I do not know just how much detail you want. I will relate this with not a great deal of detail. Mr. CANNON. Just briefly, or at least whatever you consider most important. BALLISTIC RESEARCH

Dr. MoRELAND. Now, division 1 we had originally estimated at $3. 530,000. We are now estimating it at $3,000,000.

Mr. TABER. What is that division?

Dr. McRELAND.. I suggest that this be off the record.

Mr. CANNoN. Off the record.

(D.scussion off the record.)

Dr. MoRELAND. That is the type of thing this committee works on. It has made some very great accomplishments already.


On division 2, the figure we gave you was $1,800,000. We are now reducing that to $1,250,000. I do not need to say a great deal about that division. - (Discussion off the record.) Mr. TABER. I am going to ask you to tell as to each of these whether your activity is pretty well completed. Dr. MoRELAND. In this particular case, we think we will have a com: siderable amount of activity during the coming year.


Now, division 3, which had been estimated at $9,250,000, we are now estimating at $8,000,000. (Discussion off the record.)


Dr. MoRELAND. The next division, division 4, we had in for $4. 250,000. We now have it in for $4,000,000. That is not very much of a cut, and I can tell you why, off the record. (Discussion off the record.)


Dr. MoRELAND. For Division No. 5 the amount originally requested was $3,540,000. We are now asking for $3,000,000. We are again continuing that at very nearly the same volume, because it is primarily for use against the Japanese.

(Discussion off the record.)

Dr. MoRELAND. This is an activity that might be expected to continue in peacetime, but at a materially lower level than is now in progress.


For division 6 the estimate included in the original Budget statement was $3,600,000. We are now reducing that to $1,250,000.

Dr. BUSH. I should like to call your attention to the fact that the estimate for 1945 was $7,600,000 on that. That is one thing that is being cut.


Dr. MoRELAND. For division 7 the original Budget figure was $2,085,000. The revised figure is $1,750,000. (Discussion off the record.)

© Explosives

Dr. MoRELAND. Division 8 originally had a requirement for $3,480,000, and we have now cut that to $2,700,000. (Discussion off the record.)


Dr. MoRELAND. Division 14, which we had estimated at $26,073,686, we now estimate at $25,000,000. That was $42,000,000 this year. The change from $26,000,000 to $25,000,000 is pretty small, but in effect we had made the other estimate, of $26,000,000, on the one-front basis, because practically all the activities of that division are now directed toward the Japanese war.

RAdio coordin ATION

The next item, Division 15, was estimated at $8,580,000. We now estimate it at $6,000,000.

(Discussion off the record.)

Dr. MoRELAND.. I do not know that it is necessary that I go into any of the others. *

Mr. TABER. There is not much change in them. There is no use in discussing them.

Mr. LUDLow. I think it is worthy of note that there is one very small increase, in division 10. .

Dr. Bush. It was $1,000,000 this year.

Dr. MoRELAND. You will notice that all of these figures are pretty well rounded out.

Division 9 and division 10 are the ones Dr. Bush spoke of that had been concerned with chemical warfare, in either the offensive or defensive aspects. We do not dare completely disband those units as long as there is a war going on and the possibility of chemical warfare breaking out. Fortunately there are necessary things, or things that need to be done, which these two divisions are now working on in the meantime, but standing by as reserves against the possibility of chemical warfare.

They are now working on insect-control developments and are doing some work for the Medical Research Committee on antimalarials— synthesis of antimalarials—and work of that type, which is essential war work but is not directly along the lines for which the divisions were originally created.


Mr. Wigglesworth. What is the applied psychology panel and the committee on propagation?

Dr. MoRELAND. The applied psychology panel deals primarily with the selection and training of personnel to operate these new devices. The old practice had been to select men by guess or by lot or alphabetically, or however they happened to get them, and try them out. A certain number of those men turned out to be good operators; a certain number did not. Much time and money were wasted, and many poor operators were left in service.

So particularly the Navy became interested in the possibility of developing tests which would indicate a man's fitness for a particular type of work. A great part of this panel's work has been in that field of developing tests to determine fitness for operating certain types of equipment.

Another important part of their work has been in aiding designers to design equipment which would be easier to operate in some way or other, or which would not be so hard on a man's eyes, for example, or to locate handles in positions where a man could operate more effectively and not get so tired.

They have done some really splendid work. I do not believe there is any other division where we have had a larger number of appreciative letters from the services than we have had for that very

oup. *No. the other one about which you asked was the committee on propagation. That committee studies the effects of weather, moisture, various atmospheric conditions, and terrain on transmission of radio and radar signals.

This is off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)


Mr. CANNoN. Have you done any work on frequency modulation? Dr. BUSH. Yes; in connection with our communications group. We did quite a little work on special communications systems, and much of that was on frequency modulation. It proved to be better there than for ordinary communications. Mr. CANNoN. What about the future of frequency modulation? Dr. BUSH. I think it is very large indeed in commercial use. It was just beginning to come in before the war, and I think it will probably be very greatly used after the war. Mr. CANNoN. The statement was made that there would probably be a o; of all the present-type radio stations and a building of new types of stations and receiving sets; is that true? Dr. BUSH. Oh, yes. Before the war there were frequency modulation sets just beginnin to come in. There will probably be a great many more after the war, because you can get away from static, and you can get very fine quality. I think the public will be willing to pay to get it. Mr. TABER. You will have a situation where people's radios will be all played out and they will have to buy new ones anyway; and o the sending stations will not be very far from that same situation. Dr. BUSH. Right.


Mr. TABER. I have one or two other questions. How do you handle these different projects? Do you let them out on contract or are they operated directly by you?

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