Mr. HESTER. No. You can ferment beer, I am informed, up to but not beyond 12 percent alcoholic content, but it is not sold at more than 3.6 percent.

Mr. Dowdy. What is the content of ale? Mr. HESTER. It is the same proof as beer. Ale is 3.6, the same proof. It is just a different fermentation. This gentleman who is assisting me is Mr. Wash Williams, General Manager of the U.S. Brewers Association, so he is an expert on the subject.

Mr. ROUDEBUSH. I have just one question. You say that under the Act, both malt liquor and beer as well as ale are all included. Is that true?

Mr. HESTER. Yes.
Mr. ROUDEBUSH. They are all considered beer?
Mr. HESTER. Yes.
Mr. ROUDEBUSH. I assumed that ale was 6 percent beer.
Mr. HESTER. No. The gentleman says 3.6.
Mr. ROUDEBUSH. That is the only question I had.
Mr. Dowdy. Thank you, Mr. Hester.

Mr. HESTER. Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity of appearing STATEMENT OF ROBERT F. KNEIPP, ASSISTANT CORPORATION

COUNSEL, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA GOVERNMENT; ACCOMPANIED BY MRS. JOY R. SIMONSON, CHAIRMAN, ABC BOARD; DEPUTY CHIEF OF POLICE JOHN E. WINTERS, YOUTH AID DIVISION, METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT; AND SCOTT E. MOYER, INSPECTOR, MORALS DIVISION, METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT

Mr. Dowdy. We have from the District of Columbia Government the Assistant Corporation Counsel, Mr. Robert F. Kneipp, the Chairman of the ABC Board, Mrs. Joy R. Simonson, and the Deputy Chief of Police, John E. Winters.

Mr. KNEIPP. I am Robert F. Kneipp, Assistant Corporation Counsel for the District, and with me is Deputy Chief John E. Winters of the Metropolitan Police Department. I understood Mrs. Simonson was to be here. She is not in the room. If the committee will indulge me a little later, I will call her and ask here to come on up.

I offer to the committee the report of the Commissioners on H.R. 2101 and related bills, to prohibit the sale of alcoholic beverages to persons under 21 years of age. I ask that the report of July 8, 1966 to the committee on these bills be incorporated in the record. (The report follows:) GOVERNMENT OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA,

EXECUTIVE OFFICE,

Washington, D.C. July 8, 1966. Hon. JOHN L. MCMILLAN, Chairman, Committee on the District of Columbia, United States House of Representatives, Washington, D.C.

DEAR MR. MCMILLAN: The Commissioners of the District of Columbia have for report H.R. 2101, H.R. 5418, H.R. 6702, H.R. 7007, and H.R. 11286, 89th Congress, identical bills “To amend the District of Columbia Alcoholic Beverage

Control Act to prohibit the sales of alcoholic beverages to persons under twentyone years of age."

Beer and light wine may be sold in the District of Columbia to persons eighteen years of age and older. The adjoining States of Maryland and Virginia prohibit the sale of alcoholic beverages to persons under the age of twenty-one, except that in Virginia, beverages of not more than three and two-tenths per centum (3.2%) alcohol may legally be sold to person eighteen years of age or older.

A majority of the Board of Commissioners is of the view that it would be desirable for the law in the District of Columbia respecting the sale of alcoholic beverages to presons under twenty-one generally to coincide with the law in the adjoining States of Maryland and Virginia.

Commissioner John B. Duncan is of the view that, instead of establishing the age limitation by statute, it would be preferable for the Congress to authorize the Commissioners to fix by regulation, after public hearing, the age at and above which persons may legally be sold an alcoholic beverage. This authority in the Commissioners, Mr. Duncan believes, would make it possible for the members of the community to make known their views on the matter, permit adjustments in such age limit if one of the adjacent jurisdictions should amend its law or other change in circumstances should so indicate, and, in general, afford some degree of flexibility in handling the problem of drinking by young persons.

As has been indicated above, the majority of the Board of Commissioners favors the enactment of one of the bills. Sincerely yours,

/S WALTER N. TOBRINER,

President, Board of Commissioners, D.C. Mr. KNEIPP. In that report, Mr. Chairman, the Commissioners point out that two of the three members of the Board favor the enactment of one of the bills. They believe that the laws of the District of Columbia should conform generally with those in the area. In Maryland and in Virginia, as the committee knows, the drinking age is 21, except for 3.2 beer in Virginia.

The majority of the Commissioners, Mr. Tobriner and General Duke, feel the District's law should be the same as that generally in effect in the area.

Commissioner John B. Duncan has a different view, one that conforms with the majority of the ABC Board's position. He feels that the Commissioners of the District should be given authority to make regulations establishing the drinking age, after public hearings at which the views of the community should be developed fully. This approach of Commissioner Duncan has the advantage of flexibility in that the drinking age could be adjusted by the Commissioners as there may be changes in the circumstances in effect in this jurisdiction. If another one of the jurisdictions should change its laws, then the Dis. trict could make a conforming change if that should be indicated.

In any event, Commissioner Duncan is opposed to the enactment of H.R. 2101 in its present form. This is not to say he does not believe there should be a 21-year drinking age, but he does feel this should be left to the Commissioners to determine after public hearing.

As I indicated earlier, the majority of the Board of Commissioners favors the enactment of one of the bills.

I have nothing further, Mr. Chairman. I am open to questions.

Mr. McMILLAN. I will ask you the same question that I asked of Mr. Hester. How would you go about enforcing this proposed law to increase the age limit to purchase beer.

Mr. KNEIPP. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I could defer to Deputy Chief John Winters, the man who would have the problem directly in

Mr. MCMILLAN. Yes. I am a great admirer of the Chief. We shall be glad to hear him.

Chief WINTERS. I will have to defer to Inspector Moyer on that particular question, because he is here representing the Chief and the views of the Police Department officially. This bill would affect 18, 19, and 20 year olds, which is not within my responsibility as I have charge of the Youth Aid Division and am responsible for those under 18. So Inspector Moyer, I believe, should present the views of the Police Department in that particular respect.

Mr. MCMILLAN. I can readily see that you distinguish between those over and those under 18, because you call on boys to produce draft cards or ID cards when they purchase beer in taverns. Every young man who has reached the age of 18 must carry a draft or ID card on his person at all times.

Chief WINTERS. That is correct, sir. Mr. McMILLAN. —so you can tell whether they are 18 or not. I can see the trouble you would have with those under 18.

Mr. Dowdy. Who did you say was here?
Chief WINTERS. Inspector Scott Moyer of the Morals Division.
Mr. Dowdy. Can you answer the question, Inspector Moyer?

Inspector MOYER. Of course, we do not feel it will cause a whole lot more difficult an enforcement problem on our part, because the responsibility at the present time is with the owners to ascertain the age of the people that they serve. The main consideration that we have given to this, aside from uniformity of law, is that there is some problem, not statistically, but boys and girls of 18 or 19 years of age associate with boys and girls of 16 and 17 years of age. Therefore, there is quite a likelihood of an 18-year-old boy buying beer for 15, 16 or 17-year-old boys. We know this not from statistics but from things that we hear.

I have received reports from men in the surrounding communities who have children of their own and who know that the children in the neighborhood when they are going to have a beer party send an 18-year-old boy over to Washington to buy their beer.

We can extend this to 21-year olds. They associate with 18 or 19year-olds and, conversely, they would buy beer for the 20 or 19-yearold ones.

As pointed out by the previous witness, they still will have their little private parties for this beer. But we feel we shall further get it out of the hands of the 16 and 17-year-olds and 15-year-olds. That is one of the primary considerations that I gave in my recommendation, plus the fact that we were seeking uniformity in regulation and to avoid possible friction.

As I say, there are no statistics on any of these things, but I am sure many parents in surrounding communities have felt harshly toward the District when one of their children came home injured in an automobile accident or something like that, who could not have obtained beer in that jurisdiction.

Mr. McMILLAN." Anyone in Maryland can get all the beer he wants. He does not have to come to the District.

Inspector MOYER. I do not say they cannot, sir, but I know they do come over here to get it.

Mr. McMILLAN. They can get all they want in any grocery store. I have had experience with that problem. That is the reason I know.

MCMILLAN ounger childist, a feel

a lot of MCMILLAN. If you could vote for it, thahelieve drinking eith

Inspector MOYER. I am sure you can get most anything any time if you attempt it. This is just a feeling that we widen the gap a little bit on these younger children.

Mr. McMILLAN. In Virginia they can go to the State liquor store and purchase 3.2 beer. You can go to the grocery store and get beer. I have never heard of anyone being refused.

Inspector MOYER. I am sure you are right. We have the same situation here.

Mr. McMILLAN. We were not able to enforce the Prohibition Act, and this is similar to that act.

Inspector MOYER. We have the same problem in enforcing the 18year-old age limit.

Mr. MCMILLAN. Many of our Vietnam veterans are under 20 years old. If he goes to a tavern for a glass of beer, do you think he should be refused service of a can of beer?

Inspector MOYER. Normally I do not think so but, as I say, we are basing this not on individual groups, sir. We have to consider the whole picture. We are not trying to pin any one group. I certainly feel somebody who has fought for his country is entitled to that if he is old enough to fight.

On the other hand, you have these other children, and I do not think a lot of them are mature enough.

Mr. McMILLAN. If you can propose a solution to block the sale of alcohol completely out, I would vote for it, that is, if you could insure the law to be completely enforced. I do not believe drinking either beer or liquor at parties does any one any good, but I do not know how you can pevent it. If you have any way of preventing it, I would like to know.

Inspector MOYER. I am afraid I haven't the answer to that.
Mr. McMILLAN. I do not believe I care to ask any more.
Mr. Dowdy. Mr. Grider.

Mr. GRIDER. Inspector, did I understand you to say that your feeling about this was based on stories you heard and rumors? You do not have statistics on the number of 18 to 21 year olds involved in alcoholic offenses?

Inspector MOYER. We would have that on the number of arrests for intoxication, yes, sir.

These figures have been called for, but statistically many of the figures are not available.

For instance, we were called upon to submit figures on the number of children or youths between 18 and 21 who were involved in crimes in the District who came over here to secure alcoholic bevereges. Unless you interrogated the person that was involved in anything as to why he was over here, what the primary purpose was for being over here, statistically—and I am sure that Deputy Chief Winters can answer that—the problem is not a particularly high problem from that standpoint, from the number of arrests. We do have an investigation of the source of alcoholic beverage of a person under the age of 21 who happens to be arrested for intoxication. The Department is obliged to make the investigation. If the person tells you he got intoxicated on beer, if he does not have the source of the intoxicant with him, you would have to accept his statement.

Mr. GRIDER. You have statistics of the number of offenders between the ages of 18 and 21 who are involved in alcohol-related offenses, don't you?

65–999—66— 6

Inspector MOYER. Yes, they are available.
Mr. GRIDER. Do you have them with you?
Inspector MOYER. No, sir, I did not expect to testify.

Mr. GRIDER. You knew what we were going to talk about today, did you not?

Inspector MOYER. I came here just to sit in, sir. I did not really expect to be called to testify.

Mr. GRIDER. Let me ask you, are you for or against permitting 18 year olds to buy beer and wine?

Inspector MOYER. I recommended that the bill be changed to 21. Mr. GRIDER. Why?

Inspector MOYER. Mainly for uniformity between the District, Maryland, and Virginia. As I stated, I felt that by raising the age limit we might get some of it out of the hands of the 16 and 17-year olds.

Mr. GRIDER. It just seems strange to me that the Police Department of the District of Columbia cannot produce more concise testimony on a subject of this importance to the Police Department. I do not have any further qeustions.

Mr. Dowdy. Mr. Roudebush.

Mr. ROUDEBUSH. Would you favor an exemption for men in uniform to buy beer? Many states have this provision.

Inspector MOYER. Yes. I personally would- I cannot speak for the Chief-I personally would be in favor.

Mr. ROUDEBUSH. Would you favor allowing men in uniform at 18 to drink beer?

Inspector MOYER. As has been pointed out here, on many military bases in the states that do prohibit, beer is served on the military bases. I am speaking for myself, sir, when I make that statement.

Mr. ROUDEBUSH. Thank you, that is all.
Mr. Dowdy. Thank you.

Chief Winters, you were the next witness and I think you probably had a statement.

Chief WINTERS. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman.

In view of the estabilshed policy of the Board of Commissioners concerning this legislation I cannot make any official statement contrary to that policy, as you can well understand. Expressing my own personal opinion, I would rather stay in the area in which I believe I have some competency and that is in the area of age responsibility.

As the Chairman knows, over the years I have testified before various subcommittees of the House District Committee as well as joint meeting of the Senate and House District committees and in many public apperances and many panels and forums of my belief that 16 and 17 year olds who commit felonious crimes and by their patterns of behavior are menaces to the community should be considered young criminals and treated as such. I have been saying this for many, many years.

Mr. Bowdy. I know you have. Chief WINTERS. There is no question in my mind that when a person reaches the age of 18, he is mature enough, generally speaking—because some will never reach maturity-generally speaking are mature enough to accept responsibility to make a decision and be responsible for their actions and their behavior.