Department of Defense to continue the use of two aircraft which will be based at Friendship and will carry NASA markings. The total of 80 can be broken down into 37 aircraft used for research purposes, 20 aircraft used for proficiency flying and training-these include the F-104's that we have out at Edwards, our Flight Test Center, and also aircraft used by the astronauts for training and proficiency work-and, finally, 23 administrative aircraft. These last are broken down into 7 passenger aircraft and 16 passenger-cargo aircraft. ADMINISTRATIVE AIRCRAFT Senator ALLOTT. Now, of these administrative aircraft, what types of aircraft are they? Dr. SEAMANS. We have three Grumman Gulfstreams, one based at Langley which we use here at headquarters, one based at our Marshall Space Flight Center, and one based at our Manned Spacecraft Center at Houston, Tex. In addition we include two twin Beechcraft C-45's that are assigned to JPL. Senator ALLOTT. What is "JPL." Dr. SEAMANS. That is the Jet Propulsion Laboratory which is operated for us under contract with the California Institute of Technology. And one C-47 twin-engine transport out at our Flight Research Center. Mr. WEBB. At Edwards Air Force Base in California. Senator ALLOTT. That is 6 out of 23. Dr. SEAMANS. Now, in addition Senator ALLOTT. Administrative planes. Dr. SEAMANS. In addition there are Mr. WYATT. There is one Convair T-29 that we obtained from the Air Force. Dr. SEAMANS. Which is based out at our Lewis Center. We can submit for the record, if you like, a complete listing of all the aircraft. Senator ALLOTT. Well, let us just follow through on these 23 administrative aircraft. We cannot find out unless we know here. Dr. SEAMANS. All right. To continue with these aircraft, we also have a C-47 aircraft based at Langley, we have two C-47 aircraft at Lewis, and we have also a Ryan L-174 light plane at Lewis. We have already mentioned the Convair that is based at Lewis. And we are renting an aircraft, a Jetstar, which is based down at the Kennedy Space Center. We have also down there a Bell helicopter. We have two Aero-Commanders at our Marshall Space Flight Center, an Aero-Commander placed out at our Flight Research Center in California, two Aero-Commanders at the Jet Propulsion Lab, three helicopters at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, and we have available a DC-3 and a Martin 404 that are on contract, and are used to transport personnel on particular routes between here and Langley and between the cape and Huntsville. Recently we have eliminated one of these aircraft because Eastern Airlines is going to give us the service that we need. AIRCRAFT FOR JET PROPULSION LABORATORY Senator ALLOTT. Where is the Jet Propulsion Laboratory? Senator ALLOTT. I think I did not get these all down, but that adds up to something like five or six aircraft at least at the Jet Propulsion Lab. What is the need for these? Dr. SEAMANS. Well, as transportation-three of these are helicopters, and are used to transport people in the Greater Los Angeles area. Mr. WYATT. They also operate a data acquisition and tracking station at Goldstone, Calif., Camp Irwin, about 90 miles to the north of Los Angeles, and they have almost daily transit of technical people to and from the main Laboratory site at Pasadena up to the Goldstone site. POSSIBLE USE OF COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT Senator ALLOTT. Well, the real problem here in my opinion is how much we are flying these airplanes around the country when we could utilize commercial aircraft just as well and at a much cheaper rate. You do not fly these twin-engine planes around for nothing. Dr. SEAMANS. We are very sympathetic to that point of view, and I can assure you that it was not without considerable discussion internal to NASA that we eliminated the charter airplane that was serving our Huntsville Center. WORK AT JET PROPULSION LABORATORY Mr. WEBB. Senator, I would like to just say one thing about the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. You see, this lab is handling between $200 and $250 million of business. It is a large requirement. The Goldstone Tracking Station has under construction very large dishes and very complex electronic gear to communicate with spacecraft out around Mars and Venus. Some of these experimental installations have dishes 210 feet in diameter. These are some of the most complex installations ever put together by the human race, and there is a limited number of people capable of furnishing the leadership and the direct personal involvement in the decisions relating to this kind of work. In addition they do have large responsibilities in our worldwide tracking and data acquisition network in which the country is investing $900 million to provide a capability to operate out to a quarter of a million miles with manned spacecraft and then outward to the planets unmanned. JPL has the leading group of experts in some of the most advanced technology here so the utilization of these people is terribly important, and at Marshall we have a limited number of people to make the big decisions, and that Center handles almost a billion and a half dollars of contract work out to American industry each year. One of our greatest problems is to spend 93 cents out of every dollar with American industry and keep it within a viable total pattern. So these airplanes are important in conserving the most precious commodity involved here which is the brains of the leading people, and I think for the size of our operation and the worldwide scope of it and the fact that we are spending 93 cents out of our own installations with American industry and universities spread throughout the country is an indication of how these people live out of suitcases. They do use commercial transportation when they can. Senator ALLOTT. It would be interesting to know, and perhaps we can go into it sometime, what kind of a loading factor we get on these passenger administrative airplanes when we use them. I find it pretty hard to absorb some 80 aircraft in the space program in my own mind. Does anyone else have any questions? USE OF ADMINISTRATION PLANES Dr. DRYDEN. Of those, 57 are research and proficiency flying and training; 37 research, 20 for training. Proficiency Senator ALLOTT. Twenty for proficiency. Mr. WEBB. As Neil Armstrong will tell you, before a pilot flies an X-15 flight, he must go up in an F-104 and simulate that within 24 hours before he takes the X-15 up. This kind of procedure is what has given us a record of safety with the X-15 airplane. We have not lost a pilot in over a hundred flights with the X-15, but no pilot takes up the X-15 without flying a mission as nearly similar as possible in the F-104 the day before. So there is a real need for these airplanes. BREAKDOWN OF USE OF PLANES You Senator MONRONEY. I think we should have a breakdown. do have proficiency flying in the 104's and other aircraft. You have numbers of others devoted to Langley for aeronautical research and then you have planes for the transport of the people and things. Then we can have some idea of what these 80 are actually used for. I personally would like to see you operate all the aircraft you need for your research in aviation because I think this is a forgotten stepchild of the Agency. Dr. SEAMANS. There are 37 aircraft used for research purposes, and I do have here a table that indicates the type of aircraft, where the aircraft is located, purchase cost Senator MONRONEY. Identified as research? Dr. SEAMANS. Yes, and the type of research we are doing with each one. Senator MONRONEY. I think that should be put in the record. Do you have an extra copy? Senator ALLOTT. Put it in the record. Dr. SEAMANS. You can look at it now if you like. (The document referred to is as follows:) PURPOSE AND OWNERSHIP OF AIRCRAFT NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION Summary of aircraft—by purpose and ownership, fiscal year 1965 budget Total Туре Decem- 1964 1965 Decem- 1964 1965 Decem- 1964 1965 Decem- 1964 1965 ber 1963 ber 1963 ber 1963 Fiscal year 1964: During the second half of fiscal year 1964 the following changes in aircraft inventory are planned: NASA owned: One HRS-1 helicopter will be disposed of, purchase one HX-51 helicopter and one XC-142 transport to support the aeronautical program at Langley Research Center. Military services: One VZ-2 VTOL and one H-13G helicopters at Langley will be returned to the Army. At MSC, one H-13 helicopter and five T-38's to be acquired; four F-102's to be returned to the USAF. Leased commercially: No changes. Fiscal year 1965: The following changes in fiscal year 1965 aircraft inventory are planned: NASA owned: Purchase of one LOH Hughes helicopter at Langley. As of February 6, 1964, a requirement for 15 T-38's exists for astronauts training purposes at MSC. However, the quantity and the fiscal year 1965 funding has not been resolved. (Nonadd item.) Purchase of one Jet Star at KSC, and one Aero-Commander at FRC for administrative use. Military services: One HSS-24HCIA helicopter to be loaned by USA to MSC. Leased commercially: One S64 and one Helio-Courier helicopters for Langley. Terminate leases for one Jet Star at KSC and one Aero-Commander at FRC. |