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the legislative history that was made by the proponents of a bill which I hoped would be defeated.

I close these remarks by saying once again, I think the President's proposal is a proposal that falls considerably short of compulsory arbitration as I have defined arbitration, both compulsory and voluntary.

I think it is a proposal that will result in a just and fair settlement to the men and to the carriers. I have a hunch that this proposal, once enacted, will never reach the stage of finality as far as recommendations by the Board are concerned but during the 90 days I think, probably during the first 30 days, it will result in a settlement which you people and the brotherhoods and the people of the carriers will admit under all the circumstances is a fair and just settlement.

Would that we were not in a position where the right to strike or the right to lock out has to be curtailed. But they are only relative rights. I listened with great interest to Mr. Leighty as well as to you as to your interest in meeting the war needs of the country in a time of crisis.

Let the record show that I don't in the slightest degree question your desire to do whatever is necessary to promote the interest of this country in time of war. The fact that I think a different course should be followed than the one you proposed is no reflection upon you or upon the carriers as far as carrying out your responsibilities as patriotic citizens to your Government in time of war.

My reply to you is that there is a better alternative, I think, than the alternative you proposed. I think the President's alternative is much to be preferred. I think we ought to follow it and get on with the business of getting this case settled under the terms of Senate Joint Resolution 81, modified in whatever particulars we need to modify it to meet the objections or the questions that have been raised as to its clarity.

As I said the other day, to whatever extent it needs to be clarified, I am for clarifying it. To whatever extent it is proposed to change the procedure, change its framework, change its legislative objectives, I shall continue to oppose those changes.

Senator YARBOROUGH. I want to thank the Senator from Oregon for presiding in my enforced absence. I think that he is the most knowledgeable man in labor law in the U.S. Congress, certainly in the Senate of the United States, with his long experience in World War II, with the War Labor Mediation Board, and his experience since, he has been called in by the President to help in the arbitration and mediation of labor disputes. Sometimes on the floor of the Senate it would appear that the Senator from Oregon is in sharp disagreement with the Chief Executive or any Member of the Senate. But the next day the President will be calling on him to come down and advise him on labor law, on some labor dispute.

I think in this situation with the deeper involvement in Vietnam than we ever had in Korea, we should keep in mind the language of Abraham Lincoln in his December 1862 message, after the successful Confederate invasion of Kentucky and right after Grant's first attempt to take Vicksburg and after Lee's brilliant successes in Virginia, in desperation Lincoln called the Congress into session and said, "The

times are new and we must learn to think anew." So if we have any new thoughts about the settlement of this dispute we want to explore those lines, too. We are exploring basically old lines and methods at this time.

If anyone has new thoughts, as chairman of this subcommittee I welcome those, also. I want to thank the Senator from Oregon for staying here. We all have had to cancel other engagements here because this has arisen as an emergency. We are called upon by the President of the United States to pass legislation which will resolve this problem.

We all have had other commitments made months ago and we have had to reshuffle them to meet our duties in this committee. This record will be typed tonight and I will read every word of your testimony. Mr. SCHOENE. Thank you. I want to say this: I don't think that Senator Morse's closing remarks call for any comment from me. I do want to say, Senator Morse, that I am always uncomfortable when I am in disagreement with you.

I am very thankful for the fact that over the many years that I have had the pleasure of appearing before you those occasions have been infrequent.

Senator MORSE. I want to say to Mr. Schoene that you have always been a good professor of labor law for me to learn from. I have been a professor long enough to know that a professor is not always right and he makes his fair share of mistakes.

Senator YARBOROUGH. On the floor of the Senate the books call Senator Morse the "tiger" of the Senate. I know in the closed sessions of our committees he is a conciliator, arbitrator and mediator once we are trying to work these bills out in committee.

Thank you, Mr. Schoene, and thank you, Senator, for presiding. Senator FANNIN. Mr. Chairman?

Senator YARBOROUGH. Mr. Fannin.

Senator FANNIN. Mr. Schoene, we are all concerned about the great number of strikes in the transportation industry. We are concerned about those that occur under this act.

Do you think any amendment is needed to the Railway Labor Act that would help to eliminate these strikes?

Mr. SCHOENE. I don't think of any, Senator. I can think of some amendments that I would like to see made to the Railway Labor Act but they are not in this area.

I take it you don't want to discuss them now. I do not think of any amendments to the law that would be helpful in this type of situation.

I know that there is a great desire on the part of many people to enact some general legislation that would make advance preparation for these emergency situations. Nevertheless, I agree with what Will Davis once said, who was an arbitrator that I rank almost equal to Senator Morse

Senator MORSE. I was just one of his students. I could not even fill his shoes.

Mr. SCHOENE. You, at least, share my admiration for him. He was asked by a congressional committee one time what his recommendations were as to making preparation for these emergency situations.

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He said, "It is my judgment that the more you prepare for emergencies, the more emergencies you will have."

I think that was a very wise conclusion, and I agree with it. Senator FANNIN. I am sure that we all agree, Mr. Schoene, that Congress, the President, the parties involved would like to eliminate these emergency situations. One recommendation that was made by the President's Emergency Board was a comprehensive job evaluation study. A framework was set out for those studies and a job evaluation procedure was established in order to try to eliminate some of the disputes.

The wording was:

To expedite the job evaluation study the Board recommends that the parties promptly consult with the Secretary of Labor and arrive at an agreement on procedures within 60 days of date of this report. If the parties fail to agree on procedures the Secretary of Labor shall be authorized to designate a Board to determine then through final and binding arbitration.

How do you feel about this, Mr. Schoene?

Mr. SCHOENE. On the basis of really rather sparse knowledge of this particular dispute I would be inclined to agree with the comments. In fact, I have no basis whatever for disagreeing with the comments that have already been made. I should make it clear to you that I did not represent the shopcraft unions in the handling of this dispute. Mr. Hickey did. I would defer completely to his judgment on that matter. I don't think it is appropriate that I should even comment one way or the other. But to the extent that I do comment I would say that I thoroughly agree with Mr. Hickey.

Senator FANNIN. I regard this recommendation as one having general application. It would not apply solely to this particular strike. I am asking from your knowledge whether or not this would be one area where we might seek some solutions to these problems.

Mr. SCHOENE. I have an entirely different understanding as to the Emergency Board recommendation. I understand it to be purely with reference to a disposition of this dispute and not to be of any general applicability.

Senator FANNIN. That is correct. But I am asking whether you think this procedure might be adopted in labor negotiations?

Mr. SCHOENE. I don't think that it is a recommendation that is made for adoption in labor negotiations generally. I see no occasion for it all. I think to consider it in the light of more general application would be merely to generate controversy rather than to allay it.

Senator FANNIN. Thank you. I know you realize that we are all seeking to try to find a solution that we will not be back here again in a short time.

I have no further questions.

Senator YARBOROUGH. I think I ought to read this letter into the record. It has just been handed me. It comes from the Secretary of Transportation with a notation to hand-carry it to this room, so it was apparently written a few minutes ago. It is from the Secretary of Transportation, May 15, 1967, addressed to me as chairman of this Labor Subcommittee:

Thank you for your letter of May 11 in which you outline on behalf of the members of the Labor Subcommittee a series of questions relating to partial operation of the nation's railroads.

That was the question about whether or not it could be done :

To the limit of the ability possessed by this Department and other agencies of the Government, we will have a response to these inquiries in your hands by the close of business on Friday, May 19.

I should like to emphasize that several of these questions can only be answered with some certainty, as Senator Morse suggested, by those who operate and staff the railroads of the nation. I believe the same detailed questions should be presented to both management and labor when they are called before your subcommittee.

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DEAR SENATOR YARBOROUGH: Thank you for your letter of May 11 in which you outline on behalf of the members of the Labor Subcommittee a series of questions relating to partial operation of the nation's railroads.

To the limit of the ability possessed by this Department and other agencies of the Government, we will have a response to these inquiries in your hands by the close of business on Friday, May 19.

I should like to emphasize that several of these questions can only be answered with some certainty, as Senator Morse suggested, by those who operate and staff the railroads of the nation. I believe the same detailed questions should be presented to both management and labor when they are called before your subcommittee.

Sincerely yours,

ALAN S. BOYD, Secretary.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Are there any further questions of Mr. Schoene?

Are there further statements you desire to make?
Mr. SCHOENE. No, thank you.

Senator YARBOROUGH. If you wish to file any statement later it will be received too.

We have another witness. Mr. Rice is here, president of the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad Co. Does the committee desire to continue at this time with Mr. Rice's testimony, or what is Mr. Rice's convenience?

Senator MORSE. I would like to suggest because of Senate business and other commitments that, subject to your pleasure, we continue until 1:30 and then recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

Senator YARBOROUGH. If there is no objection we will proceed at this time.

Mr. Rice, will you come around please and take a chair. Do you have an assistant or counsel or adviser with you?

Mr. PRINCE. Mr Chairman, my name is Gregory Prince. I am executive vice president and general counsel of the Association of American Railroads. Mr. W. Thomas Rice, president of Atlantic Coast Line, is here to deal with questions that Senator Morse raised at the hearing last week in which he said he would like to have the benefit of the thinking of some railroad presidents on the feasibility and practicality of the proposal made by the unions in a telegram to Secretary McNamara that they would move all rail shipments essential to the

Nation's military effort and the public health in the event of a national railroad strike by the shopcraft unions.

With your permission, Mr. Rice will deal with those questions. He does not have a prepared statement but would like to talk from notes. We only managed to get in touch with Mr. Rice late Friday night. He will deal with those questions at this time.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Mr. Rice, you may proceed in your own manner. You have observed by being here the time limitations under which we operate. The Senate is now in session. But we want to hear you and we did not suggest that you be called back tomorrow. We know that busy people who take a day off from their business need to get back.

STATEMENT OF W. THOMAS RICE, PRESIDENT, ATLANTIC COAST LINE RAILROAD CO.

Mr. RICE. As has been said, my name is W. Thomas Rice. I am president of the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad Co. with general offices in Jacksonville, Fla.

I started railroading when I finished college in 1934. I am a graduate civil engineer. I went to work for the Pennsylvania at that time and worked with them until I went on active duty in 1942. I worked on seven different divisions, in engineering work and operations.

I went on active duty in 1942 and served 3 years overseas with a railway operating battalion operating the railway between the Persian Gulf and Caspian Sea-we were then allies of the Russians supplying them—and subsequently in the Philippines and Japan.

After returning from the war, going back in civilian life I entered the service of the Richmond, Fredericksburg, and Potomac Railroad, which operates between Washington and Richmond, as a track supervisor and subsequently served as superintendent of Potomac Yard across the river that you gentlemen probably can see from your office window.

For 3 years I was in charge of its operation. I later went to Richmond as general superintendent there and in 1955 was made president. In 1957 I was elected president of Atlantic Coast Line and have been there since that time.

I stayed in the military Reserve corps and was subsequently promoted to a major general as director general of the Transportation Railway Service which was the headquarters of the military railway service until approximately a year and a half ago it was declared nonessential and the organization was disbanded.

The Atlantic Coast Line Railroad operates in six States, from the northern terminus of Virginia running down through the two Carolinas, Virginia, on into Florida, and Alabama.

Our western termini are Montgomery, Birmingham, Atlanta, Spartanburg, S.C., and of course we run down to the tip end of Florida and serve many of the ports on the eastern seaboard.

As Mr. Prince has told you, I appear today to discuss in my opinion the practicability of the implementation of the program that would move certain materials essential to the welfare of the public as well as those to maintain our troops in Vietnam during a rail strike.

Gentlemen, in my opinion I think such a program is most, most difficult, if not impossible to implement.

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