paper plans. We now believe we can go further than that in the actual carrying out of the plan, for example by the establishment of this defense center, a warning system, and other details. However, that costs money, and it was for that reason we changed the wording of the enabling act, and also jumped our appropriation ninefold.

Mr. BATES. Did the Commissioners decide upon that on their own, or did the Federal Government urge them to do it?

General YOUNG. The Commissioners made that decision themselves, although the Federal Government warmly concurs.

Mr. BATES. It is not in the interest of the Federal Government that you are doing it.

General YOUNG. No, sir; but we had their encouragement.

STATUS OF CIVIL DEFENSE

Mr. BATES. What is the present status of civil defense in the District in comparison with other metropolitan areas?

General YOUNG. As far as the actual planning is concerned, I am informed we are well up in the forefront of American cities, which is not saying much, because very few cities have done very much about it.

What we have done so far is this: We have requested all of the key departments, the public utility organizations of the District, the medical organizations of the District, and several other groups who would be at the "operating level" of a civil defense plan, to submit plans for what they would do and would need in a natural emergency or in case of an air raid. Those plans have been screened very carefully; revised once; resubmitted, and very carefully considered, over the course of a week, by a group including District representatives, and representatives of NSRB, the Department of Defense, the Atomic Energy Commission, and others. So we have, you might say, the raw material for a plan. In other words, we have the bricks, but we haven't built the plan yet. There are still gaps in it. That is the present status

of it.

Colonel HAYES. General Young mentioned the directive we received from the Federal Government last October. That was addressed to the Governors of the 48 States and the Territories and the District of Columbia Commissioners. The result has been that, since we are a municipality, we have been able to go ahead and develop a municipal plan; whereas in the States generally their planning is still at the State level, and they haven't gotten down to issuing directives to the cities so they might go ahead. In that way we have gotten the jump on most cities and, for that reason as well as because of our special position, our plan will go ahead of the others and also to a certain. extent serve as a model for others.

In addition, in order to arrive at a practical basis for developing a sound policy, the National Security Resources Board has developed a program which utilizes the plan developed here in Washington; and then they have enlisted the cooperation of the cities of Seattle and Chicago so that the council will have three model plans. These will then be a basis for developing a guide for municipalities throughout the country, and which municipalities everywhere may use.

So we have profited considerably by our special position which permitted us to get the jump on most municipalities elsewhere.

Mr. BATES. The National Security Resources Board is approving your plan here?

Colonel HAYES. That is correct.

CONTROL OF CIVIL DEFENSE ACTIVITIES

Mr. BATES. Will all this work be done by and under the direction of the Commissioners?

Colonel HAYES. It will be done under the Commissioners.

The NSRB are using this, but that is not affecting our plan particularly. In other words, we are developing our own plan and simultaneously they will be able to use our plan elsewhere. Of course, here we are working very closely with the National Security Resources Board. It is easy for us to work with the Federal agencies who are vitally interested in civil defense.

Mr. BATES. I wonder if it would not be better for us to wait until they take action in other cities and then follow them, rather than have them use us as a model. What is your reaction to that?

Colonel HAYES. We should not wait. It will take a long time before most cities can get started on their plan. As it is we have had 7 months of preparation over other cities, and we will be able to proceed without delay. We are that much ahead of other cities under the directive issued. The way our plan has been developed by cooperation with the Federal agencies; by working with the military district of Washington and the National Guard; and by cooperating with the interests vitally interested in civil defense, as General Young has mentioned, namely, utilities, medical societies, transportation people, and others like that we have a sound basis. We have no doubt in our mind that the plan we are developing as far as we have gone is good and sound.

PROTECTION TO FEDERAL INSTALLATIONS

Mr. BATES. As I understand this request, it would not afford protection to any Federal installations of any kind, would it?

Colonel HAYES. Our warning system will of course warn everybody, but the responsibility of determining what measures will be taken in any Federal building is the responsibility of the Federal agency concerned. Our plan and the money we are asking for is for the protection of the entire District.

Mr. BATES. It does not include Federal buildings, is that right? Colonel HAYES. That is correct.

Mr. BATES. How are you going to get protection for these Federal buildings which we all concede are very vital to the District of Columbia?

Colonel HAYES. It depends on what you mean by "protection." Mr. BATES. Take the Capitol, for example. Under this plan just what installations and what warnings and protection would it have? Colonel HAYES. The warning system. I might explain what our warning set-up is. The Air Force is responsible for air raid warnings throughout the country. They have divided the country into certain regions and there is an Air Force control center which is responsible for warning each such region. They have subdivided the regions into areas to which they will give warnings in case of air raids. Generally an area surrounds a major city. We have one such area here

covering the District and five counties of Maryland. It is our responsibility then, when we get a warning in this area, to warn not only the District, but also the five counties of Maryland. The cost of warning the counties of Maryland would be borne by the Maryland counties, and the cost of warning the District would be borne by the District of Columbia. If banks or any private groups or any Federal agency asked for warnings, the warnings would be supplied them, but they would be billed for that service. Thus there would be a coordinated plan for warning in case of air raids throughout the District, and that includes these sirens which General Young mentioned.

The steps taken after that warning is passed out is a subject for very careful consideration, which we haven't gotten into very far yet. We have worked out our operating plans covering the Police and Fire Departments, for example, but just exactly what we tell an individual who is in a building which possibly is in a target area is something which is now being developed.

The National Security Resources Board, for example, is now drafting a pamphlet which will be circulated to all individuals, which would tell them what precautions they should take, but whether or not a Federal building would install a special shelter for the protection of the occupants of that building is something which they themselves must decide. Our funds would not provide it.

Mr. FOWLER. During the last war our defense covered the Capital and the surrounding area. That covered regulations in regard to black-outs and things of that kind.

General YOUNG. Colonel Hayes has referred, for example, to special protective measures in buildings such as bomb-proofs.

EQUIPMENT INVENTORY AT CLOSE OF WORLD WAR II

Mr. BATES. How much equipment, supplies and the like, did you have at the close of the last war?

Colonel HAYES. I have seen no inventory of that but we had quite a bit. We had some 83 sirens that the General mentioned, along with tin hats and arm bands, a lot of shovels and picks, and the like.

Mr. YOUNG. Mr. Chairman, I was the Director in the last war. We had a volunteer group and we had them well equipped. There were some overcoats, rubber coats, and night sticks, and we had boots and other equipment that we furnished to the fire-fighting people. We also had blankets. Then we furnished medical supplies, special sirens, and air-raid shelters. That equipment was quite expensive. We had about 80,000 people enrolled during the last war, nearly all volunteers. That included all the air raid wardens.

What material is left I do not know myself. I know that we gave some blankets away to some institutions and some veterans organizations; and other than that I could not tell you. Probably the auditor would know more about that.

Colonel HAYES. Of course, the Commissioner has mentioned how most of the material was disposed of, and I do know that a number of the sirens were sold at a very nominal price. I have no idea how much equipment might be left at this time.

Mr. BATES. What have you done with the sirens since the last war?

Colonel HAYES. My understanding was they were sold to towns in the surrounding area.

Mr. BATES. I am wondering, Commissioner Young, why you issued an order to dispose of those things when we were still technically at

war.

Mr. WILDING. Mr. Chairman, I believe there was an act of Congress which directed surplus property be disposed of where it was no longer needed.

Mr. FOWLER. I have a recollection there was such an act. The act abolished the Department of Civil Defense and directed that this accumulation of equipment be disposed of. It is Surplus Property Act of 1944, as amended.

COOPERATION WITH FEDERAL GOVERNMENT

Mr. YATES. It does not seem logical to me that there can be economy between the Federal and District civil defense in the city of Washington, particularly in view of the fact that we are bound to have an overlapping between the Federal and civilian agencies. Has there been any discussion of correlating those with the view of having an over-all supervision by somebody in the Federal department, or are you just going your own separate way in the expectation that perhaps some day the Federal expenses of it will be taken up by a Federal agency?

Colonel HAYES. There are certain aspects of your question that I want to answer in order.

First, our plans for the Fire Department, Police Department, medical, et cetera, will take care of the people in Federal buildings as well as other people. In other words, our plan will apply generally to any Federal agency or employees just as to private citizens, except that we will not provide shelters within a Government building; but the plan for the District we set up is such that our rescue group, for example, is going to go in any building where it needs to perform its function, whether a public or private building.

Secondly, in the present stage of the development of our plan we realize that any plan that we develop must be carefully coordinated with Federal agencies and must be comprehensive enough to cover the entire metropolitan area under a metropolitan plan as such. We haven't tried to develop such a plan so far because we were not sure where we were going. We thought the first thing was to develop a plan for the District, for civil defense; then, when we arrived at that point and had a sound basis for the implementation of such a plan, we would go ahead on a broader basis.

Mr. YATES. It seems to me that the plan proposed sets up a metropolitan problem rather than a piecemeal segmented problem such as apparently we have presented to us this morning and logically your coming into the picture would be as a part of an over-all plan for our metropolitan area. Doesn't that sound logical to you?

Colonel HAYES. Our plan undoubtedly will be part of an over-all metropolitan plan. There is no doubt in our minds about that.

Mr. YATES. Then can you present such a plan in view of the fact that your authority extends only to the District line? Should it not, therefore, come from the Federal Government which has the over-all authority to go beyond municipal and State lines?

Colonel HAYES. Well, generally speaking, civil defense is a function for the small governments. It is not a function for a large government. The civil defense of Arlington County will be something to be worked out for Arlington County, for example, and not the State of Virginia; and our interest in the Arlington plan, as they develop their plan, is to see that it coordinates with ours; so that, to that extent, we will have a general over-all coordinated plan covering the metropolitan

area.

Mr. YOUNG. Might I add during the last war I met quite frequently with the commissioners of the various counties and we all worked together on one plan, and it worked very well.

Mr. YATES. In the last war did you have a Federal command superimposed upon it?

Mr. YOUNG. No, not in the city of Washington. They worked very closely with us. All the outfits worked together. They had offices and personnel at our headquarters. It worked very well, and the Government buildings you are talking about had a representative and he had a staff under him; and at the Capitol here there was Dave Lynn, or someone who was in his office and close to the Capitol.

General YOUNG. A large part of the civil defense activities-for example in Arlington County and in Prince Georges County must be handled by the county authorities themselves. An act of Congress could not compel them to issue certain orders to their fire departments, for example. What they do must be on a voluntary basis. The enabling legislation authorizes us to deal with them, but they operate

under their local laws.

Mr. YATES. I agree with that except, of course, Federal law in furtherance of the police power would supersede it.

Mr. YOUNG. In regard to the Federal law, I remember that when LaGuardia was at the head of it I would report to him. I think that is what you are talking about.

GENERAL ADMINISTRATION

Colonel HAYES. This appropriation is broken down in four parts. The first is concerned with the establishment of a Director of Civil Defense with planning and operating staffs at an estimated cost of $86,380.

The second item is the establishment of a civil defense command net at a cost of $83,620, the third is the establishment of a civil defense warning net at a cost of $57,300, and the fourth is certain civil defense operations involving surveys, records and training at an estimated cost of $62,700.

PERSONAL SERVICES

The first item under project 1 is "Personal services" at an estimated cost of $72,200. That consists essentially of about four types of personnel.

There will be five key individuals who will be a key part of our civil defense organization. They will be the Director of Civil Defense and his staff, who will direct the development of the civilian defense plan, the implementation of that plan, and presumably in the event of a disaster would control the disaster operations.

The Director of Civil Defense would be a department head just like any other department head, and would be directly under the Board