Dr. SIMMS. Those precautions are taken, not because we would be so much afraid of animals that we knew had been dropped and raised along the Mexican border, if we knew the disease was 280 miles away, but because

Mr. WHITTEN. I mean, the personnel you have down there have worked at it. How many do you have? What is the greatest total that you have had in Mexico?

Dr. SIMMS. The total number of full-time workers for the Commission has exceeded 6,000 at one time.

Mr. WHITTEN. And with 6,000 men down there, from all the information you got, they haven't found this disease any closer than 280 miles.

PRESENT RESEARCH FACILITIES

Now, getting back to another thing. With regard to your present facilities for research and experimentation, how many buildings have you at Beltsville in connection with the Bureau of Animal Industry? What is the size of the laboratory? What is the total value?

Dr. SIMMS. You mean the laboratories for research on animal diseases or all of our buildings?

Mr. WHITTEN. All of your buildings which you could throw to that, if need be.

Dr. SIMMS. We have one laboratory building for research in animal diseases and then the barns and stables, and so forth.

Mr. WHITTEN. What is the approximate value of all of that?

Dr. SCHOENING. The laboratory building, I think, cost about $75,000 when it was put up in 1935 or 1936.

Mr. WHITTEN. The total value of your property is extremely high out there, isn't it? You couldn't replace what you have got there for half a million or a million, could you?

Dr. SCHOENING. No.

Mr. WHITTEN. You also carry on work in connection with your various State experimentations, don't you? I am not talking about foot-and-mouth disease. I am just looking to see what facilities you have got to meet the problems that arise or might arise with regard to the animal industry.

Dr. SIMMS. We do cooperative work with a high percentage of experiment stations that have any work with animal disease. Some don't have any work in that field.

Mr. WHITTEN. But practically all States that have any livestock of any consequence do carry on such programs, do they not?

Dr. SIMMS. And we do cooperative work with the majority of them.

ORIGIN OF RECENT OUTBREAK OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE IN MEXICO

Mr. WHITTEN. Tracing back this outbreak in Mexico, I wish you would repeat for the record how this disease got started down there and just the developments down there.

Dr. SIMMS. The Mexicans imported from Brazil some Zebu or Brahman cattle. We have had with them, as you probably know, a treaty that they would not bring in any cloven-footed animals from countries in which foot-and-mouth disease existed without our consent and we, in turn, would not bring them in from such countries without their consent. These animals were brought in. The Mexicans, some of them, claim that they lived up to the requirements in that

they held these cattle on Sacrificios Island in Vera Cruz Bay for a while. These animals were landed, over our protest, and this after Mexican officials had assured us they would not be landed. Approximately a month after these animals were landed, according to what the Mexicans have told us, this disease appeared. This was approximately November 1, 1946.

Mr. ANDERSEN. What year?

Dr. SIMMS. That was in 1946.

Mr. HORAN. Did they tell you the day before they allowed these animals to land? Had they not assured you by telephone or telegraph that the animals would not be landed?

Dr. SIMMS. They had promised us at a meeting in Los Angeles late in August that the animals would not be landed.

Mr. HORAN. When were the animals landed?

Dr. SIMMS. The animals were actually landed in September.
Mr. HORAN. In September?

Dr. SIMMS. Yes. That decision was reversed, and we knew of its reversal actually before the animals were on land.

Mr. HORAN. Did you have reason to believe that these bulls were carriers of the virus rather than being actually infected?

Dr. SIMMS. The only reason we had to think that these bulls were dangerous was that they were coming from a country in which we knew foot-and-mouth disease existed.

Mr. HORAN. Do you know the subsequent history of these bulls which were landed? Did they suffer from the disease and did it run its course?

Dr. SIMMS. Whether they had an attack of the disease or not, we can't say. We were told originally that none of the bulls ever had foot-and-mouth disease. They didn't have visible symptoms when we saw them.

Now, that is the story as we know it. It is all hearsay with us. We did not examine the bulls when they were on the island in Vera Cruz Bay. They asked us many times to come and look at the bulls, and we took the stand that it was illegal for them to come into Mexico. We explained we could not examine these bulls and determine whether they were carriers of this virus.

Mr. HORAN. Do you know of any immunization that exists in various breeds of cattle?

Dr. SIMMS. In our own experience in Mexico, the European breeds develop more severe symptoms and a higher percentage of them develop the disease than the average Mexican cattle, which probably carry some Spanish blood or mayb Zebu or Brahman blood.

Mr. HORAN. It is more susceptible in the Brahman blood?

Dr. SIMMS. They seem to be more resistant.

Mr. HORAN. The tropical cattle are more resistant?

Dr. SIMMS. The tropical cattle, that is, the native breed and the Brahman cattle seem to be more resistant.

Mr. HORAN. Your purebred cattle are more susceptible?

Dr. SIMMS. They seem to be.

Mr. HORAN. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. WHITTEN. Doctor, once this disease got started in Mexico, as you say, it jumped two or three miles a day. For the benefit of the record, although at first there was the problem of getting the people sold on eradication, and so forth, you have always had the full coopera

tion from the Mexican Government, I believe, toward eradication, but you have had the support of large parts of the people and all in the last year or two, have you not?

Dr. SIMMS. Yes, sir. Our cooperation has been, I would say, just as good as we could possibly expect.

ANIMAL DISEASE RESEARCH IN MEXICO

Mr. WHITTEN. Mexico has gone in and put up some excellent buildings and made some preparation for carrying on research in connection with this disease, have they?

Dr. SIMMS. They have put up quite a commodious laboratory building and some laboratory barns, places for holding livestock, yes, sir. Mr. WHITTEN. I don't attribute this to the Department, but there are some folks in this country who are afraid for Mexico to carry on such research just on the basis that they are afraid for anybody else to keep this virus alive and to carry on such experimentation. However, Mexico is a sovereign power, and if there is a decision, of course, the Mexican people themselves will make the determination, as in the years past; is that not so?

Dr. SIMMS. I would say that that is a decision they will make; yes, sir.

Mr. WHITTEN. And there is no way for us to prevent them. can prevail on them and have agreement with them, but in the final analysis, when we say the Mexican Government, it means whatever government might be in power at the time.

Dr. SIMMS. We realize that is true. We have an agreement with them that the virus will all be destroyed, and has been, but we are all ware of what you say is a fact.

Mr. WHITTEN. On the other hand, we have got a twofold problem, one is to eradicate the disease down there, the other is to keep it out, either by the Mexican Government not letting it escape during this research or by not bringing in bulls from infected areas. We are absolutely dependent on the Mexican Government, which has full autonomy. It is fully a sovereign power. One is not to let the virus get loose from them; the other is not to bring it in again. We are dependent on that so far as keeping it out of Mexico in the future, aren't we?

Dr. SIMMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHITTEN. And, of course, we have done everything we can to prevail on them to take ample precautions in both directions. Now, don't you think that, in view of the fact that some people in our country feel that they might let the virus get loose from them if they do experiment with it and do research work on it-we should have agreements whereby we keep scientists and research people down there to cooperate with them so that we will have some knowledge of what precautions are being taken? And further that might keep them aware of the danger of bring it in again?

Dr. SIMMS. I don't think that the Mexican Government is planning on doing any work in research.

Mr. WHITTEN. You were speaking of the present Mexican Government. They have a constitution and they change governments from time to time, and history shows that sometimes they don't want for the constitutional times. So you have reference to the present government, do you not, and from all accounts, it is a good government.

I certainly don't mean any criticism of the Mexican people or the Mexican Government, and it is their business, but it still does leave a question as to whether we should not cooperate to the point of having our folks down there, where we are aware of what happens.

Dr. SIMMS. I would agree with you, Mr. Whitten, that if they are to do research with foot-and-mouth disease in Mexico, I would surely like very much for us to have some of our people down there.

Mr. WHITTEN. Are you expecting them to just graciously close up this big laboratory building that they have put up and say, “No, you folks in the northern part of North America or the central part are so much better equipped to do all this and have so much more confidence in yourselves than you have of us that we will just close our laboratory up and we are not going to do it." Do you anticipate that they will take such action?

Dr. SIMMS. I am anticipating they will not work with foot-andmouth disease in the laboratory. They will work with other diseases. The laboratory was constructed so that it could be used for working with any group of animal diseases.

Mr. WHITTEN. The fact they do change governments from time to time and the fact that they did get this disease in before, notwithstanding the agreements with us that they would not do it, notwithstanding the fact we were pressuring them not to do it, do you know of any way that you could come more nearly to getting whatever government was in power ot the time to keep the disease out and for them to keep the people in Mexico conscious of these dangers and all by having activity and work in connection with it?

Dr. SIMMS. I think the biggest assurance that we will have in Mexico in the next good many years that the disease will not be brought in again will be the fact that the big cattlemen in the northern provinces of Mexico, who are very powerful in that country, have suffered very material monetary losses because of foot-andmouth disease.

Mr. WHITTEN. Didn't they also help to keep out these bulls and join with us in their efforts to prevent the Government from bringing them in and they were brought in anyway?

Dr. SIMMS. They did, but they didn't join with as much enthusiasm as they would join after having gone through the experience of the last 3 years. I agree, of course, with everything you say, that Mexico is a sovereign country and we can't tell them what to do, but I am just trying to analyze it from every angle. I do think that the pressure from the northern Mexican States would be much greater in the future than it has been in the past.

PRUDENCE ISLAND

Mr. WHITTEN. Jumping from that subject back to Prudence Island, how big is this island?

Dr. SIMMS. The island, all told, is approximately 3,000 acres.

Mr. WHITTEN. How close is its closest point to the shoreline?
Dr. SIMMS. About a mile and a quarter, a mile and a half.

Mr. MORRIS. A mile and a quarter to Portsmouth.

Mr. WHITTEN. You plan to get about 500 acres on that island?
Dr. SIMMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHITTEN. The Navy has how big a part of it?

Dr. SIMMS. The Navy has about the same amount.

Dr. SHAHAN. Six hundred acres.

Mr. WHITTEN. And how many thousands of acres are in the whole island?

Dr. SIMMS. About 3,000 acres.

Mr. WHITTEN. And you and the. Navy will operate about a third of it. Who does the other part belong to?

Dr. SIMMS. A good part of the rest of it is owned by a single estate, the Grace estate.

Mr. WHITTEN. Do you have any power of eminent domain or any authority in the law? Can you condemn any animals that may be brought there, pets or things of that sort, or are you depending upon reaching agreement with these people not to bring cloven-footed animals on the island?

Dr. SIMMS. We don't have any authority.

Mr. WHITTEN. You have no authority to kill them if they did bring them on?

Dr. SIMMS. No.

Mr. WHITTEN. The people who have summer homes, how many are there?

Dr. SIMMS. The number of people who live on the island permanently is quite small. I believe it is something in the neighborhood of 50 or 60.

Dr. SIMMS. The summer residents have been estimated as being about 500 with up to 2,000 on some weekends or holidays.

Mr. WHITTEN. Do any of them carry pets to and from the island? Dr. SIMMS. I am sure they carry dogs and some of them cats. I don't think any of them take any considerable percentage of animals that are susceptible to foot-and-mouth disease to the island. We have been on the island several times and have made surveys, and I believe we have never found a record of as many as 30 animals on the island that were susceptible to foot-and-mouth disease. It is not a farm island.

Mr. WHITTEN. You never found as many as 30, but you have got no authority to get that 30 off, have you?

Dr. SIMMS. No; we don't have authority to tell those people that they can't keep them.

Mr. WHITTEN. What is the Navy's attitude about you coming on there? They will have some additional work in trying to take the proper precautions.

Mr. MORRIS. They were very cooperative. They even offered to let us use their dock facilities and go through their property. However, of course, in case of an emergency, that privilege might be taken away, so we wouldn't consider that.

Mr. WHITTEN. Whose emergency, theirs or yours?

Mr. MORRIS. Theirs.

Dr. SIMMS. The Navy has been very cooperative. They offered to let us use their property if they could have a reclaiming clause in it. In other words, we could go in and use some of their land, but of course, with our facilities on it, we wouldn't want them to come and reclaim it.

Mr. WHITTEN. Off the record. (Off the record.)