Mr. RABAUT. They figure the estimated power was 3,600,000,000 kilowatts, and they claim a need for the completion of 9,000,000,000 watts. Mr. NORBLAD. I have used kilowatts. Mr. RABAUT. Yes; kilowatts. Mr. NORBLAD. McNary Dam, which will be completed very soon, will supply 900,000 kilowatts; and Ice Harbor will only have 195,000 kilowatts. The Chief Joseph Dam, 1,700,000 kilowatts; and Hungry Horse will produce 300,000 kilowatts, which is also under construction and which will be completed in the reasonably near future. Now, on the fisheries question I wish you would call the Fish and Wildlife Service people up here. Mr. RABAUT. You see, they have another problem, they put the water to use and then let it go on down where it is used again, always getting more power. Mr. NORBLAD. That is true of the whole series of dams. Mr. RABAUT. That is the argument the Army engineers come up and give to us. Mr. NORBLAD. You have those dams running hundreds of miles up inland from the mouth of the river. Mr. RABAUT. How successful are they with the replanting of fish? They have been trying to replant them down below the dams. Mr. NORBLAD. I understand that it helps to a certain extent, but you could never replace Mother Nature in that respect, and in this territory you are cutting off 75 percent of the salmon which spawn up this river, and you are going to put a block right at the mouth of it. For power you have McNary, Chief Joseph, and some of the other dams. I wish you would hear the Fish and Wildlife Service on that. Mr. RABAUT. Whom do you think we should hear? Mr. NORBLAD. The Fish and Wildlife Service. They have made survey and studies of this, and I am sure that they could give you technical information on that much better than I could. Mr. RABAUT. Thank you. Mr. KERR. Mr. Scrivner? Mr. SCRIVNER. I have no questions. Mr. TABER. I have no questions. Mr. KERR. Thank you, Mr. Norblad. TUESDAY, JULY 18, 1950. ICE HARBOR LOCK AND DAM WITNESS HON. HAL HOLMES, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WASHINGTON Mr. KERR. In accordance with your request, we will be glad to hear you now on the matter in which you are interested, the northwestern power plants and fishing interests, and so on. 69887-50-pt. 1- 13 Mr. HOLMES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank the committee for the opportunity of appearing before it in behalf of the supplementary appropriation of $4,000,000 to start the construction of Ice Harbor Dam. This amount has been recommended by the Budget Bureau. I have appeared before you many times in behalf of this dam on the Lower Snake River, and I vigorously urge you to grant this supplementary appropriation. First, there is a power shortage in the Northwest and they need the electric energy. If it had not been for the power that was available in the Northwest, there never would have been the volume of sheet aluminum manufactured for airplane construction during the war. We have had a tremendous population increase. This, combined with the critical situation in which the Nation finds itself at present, should be given careful consideration by those who pass upon the granting of this supplementary appropriation. Kilowatt energy consumption has increased prodigiously per individual in the past 8 of 9 years. We have had approximately 50 percent increase in our population, and in matters of defense electric energy is paramount. There has been considerable misunderstanding and apprehension about the migratory-fish problem on mainstem dams. Let me give you some pertinent facts. There have been long and exhaustive surveys made relating to migratory fish. The Snake River is the largest tributary of the Columbia. Below the confluence of the Snake and some miles down the Columbia, the Bonneville Dam was the first to be constructed, which was completed in the year 1938. Fact No. 1: At a hearing in 1947, Tom B. Murray, of the Idaho State Fish and Game Commission, testified that in that year Idahoand the Snake River clears into Idaho country-experienced one of the largest Chinook salmon runs since the white man went into that area. That was a decade after the construction of the Bonneville Dam was virtually complete. With the new and modern fish ladders, agreed to by Fish and Wildlife of the Department of the Interior for Ice Harbor Dam, there should be no difficulty. Fact No. 2: In the 10-year period from 1938 through 1947, the number of fish going through the ladders at Bonneville Dam was actually higher at the finish than at the start. If it were true that fingerlings cannot get back down, the decade should have seen a steady drop as fewer and fewer fish would be able to make the round trip to spawning grounds. Fact No. 3: Another salient fact is that there is commercial fishing in the backwater pool of the Bonneville Dam. I am using the Bonneville Dam as an illustration because it is a main-stem dam on the Columbia, up which stream the migratory fish run to the Columbia River tributaries. Another important point is that a former Commissioner of Fisheries for the United States Fish and Wildlife Department made a study at the time the Bonneville Dam was built, which was in the period of 1937 to 1938. He reported that the fishery of the Columbia River had been declining some since 1913. Since there were no dams on the river until the Bonneville construction in 1937, obviously the depletion cannot be blamed on dams. It seems to me that these pertinent facts given to the committee, combined with direct reference to the power problem, are pretty objective evidence of the necessity of approving this supplementary appropriation. Mr. KERR. Mr. Holmes, has there been any complaint made by the fishermen that they do not catch them until they get back in the sea? Mr. HOLMES. There is a 4-year cycle. They are caught coming up the stream. Mr. KERR. Has there been any complaint that there is a diminution of the run since putting the ladders in? Mr. HOLMES. I understand there has been same complaint. I have seen some large runs of salmon in the last few years on the Columbia River and refer back to the count going up the ladders at Bonneville. Mr. RABAUT. When does that start? Mr. HOLMES. It starts in about now and runs on up until the latter part of August. Then they give a breathing spell for sportsmen's fishing. Sometimes they go back into commercial fishing after that. They have a small spring run besides that, but the main run is the period of time I have given you. Mr. RABAUT. The spring run is going out? Mr. HOLMES. The spring run is coming on in and spawns earlier. Mr. KERR. Off the record. (Discussion off the record.) Mr. RABAUT. It is your opinion, then, that the fish ladders which are being put on the Ice Harbor Dam are some of the most modern design that have ever been created? Mr. HOLMES. In fact, I know they will be better than the Bonneville Dam ladders. Mr. RABAUT In what way are they improved? Can you tell us anything about the improvement of them? Mr. HOLMES. One method is, when they are handling the water moving into the fish ladders, they can regulate the speed of the turbines to the point where they can reduce the turbulence of the water going into the fish ladders under this new design. That is being tentatively worked on. It does remove almost all of the objections which can be raised to fish ladders and the fingerlings coming down stream. Mr. KERR. What is the weight of the fish that go up these ladders? What size are they? Mr. HOLMES. They vary in size. Some of them are very large. The Chinook salmon is generally considered a very large species of salmon. Mr. KERR. Is it as large as our shad? Mr. HOLMES. Yes, and larger. I have seen many Chinook salmon running around 18, 25, and 30 pounds. Then, too, some of the sportsmen catch perfectly huge fish-individual fish, of course. Mr. RABAUT. What is the normal size? Mr. HOLMES. I would say the Chinook would come around 8 or 10 or 12 pounds average and up in large catches. Mr. KERR. Are there any other questions, gentlemen? Mr. RABAUT. You said something about a 50-per-cent increase in population. Mr. HOLMES. In the Pacific Northwest. It is approximately that. Mr. RABAUT. That is the cause of the necessity for more power? Mr. HOLMES. Definitely, through individual consumption as well as industries. Mr. TABER. How much of the time is the water available to operate these power plants? Mr. HOLMES. Most of the streams are snow-fed at their sources and carry the biggest volume of water for power development during the period of time when there is great use for irrigation pumping and other uses. Secondly, the whole series of dams, Mr. Taber, are coordinated to try and firm up the power for these dams throughout the Northwest for as long a period of time as they can possibly get. The firm-power program in the Northwest varies with the flow of the stream. That is regulated somewhat by moisture in the mountains and the runoff due to warm weather in the spring, and proper storage. Mr. TABER. Does the stream provide sufficient water at the present time that Bonneville and Coulee-they are the two set-ups that are operating, are they not? Mr. HOLMES. Yes; Bonneville, and Coulee with not all of its turbines yet. Mr. TABER. Coulee has not all of its turbines yet? Mr. HOLMES. No; not all of them. Mr. TABER. There is not anything of a substantial character above the Grand Coulee in the line of dams at present, is there? Mr. HOLMES. No; but on the tributaries you have Hungry Horse, and it will be a strong firmer of power through storage. Mr. TABER. Is that a producer yet? Mr. HOLMES. It is coming in very rapidly for pool backwaters, but I cannot say definitely how far along it is on production. Mr. TABER. Grand Coulee is only partly in operation? Mr. HOLMES. We are getting the turbines in as fast as we can. Mr. TABER. They are not all in yet? Mr. HOLMES. Not all of them, no sir; they are not. Mr. TABER. I rather understood from the Army that they were. Below Grand Coulee is Chief Joseph? Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. Mr. TABER. Would you say that the generators of Bonneville and Grand Coulee were able to operate as much as 50 percent of the time? Mr. HOLMES. They operate all the time. Mr. TABER. Full? Mr. HOLMES. All the time. As to full capacity, that would be dependent entirely on how they firm up the power and the volume of the river. During some periods in the past they have operated over capacity. Mr. TABER. Those two set-ups, according to the engineers, were 2,018,000 kilowatts a day. The engineers told us that they were constructed and operating. Mr. HOLMES. Chief Joseph is not constructed and operating. Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. Mr. TABER. And that would mean a capacity of 17,000,000 kilowatts a year. The governmental contribution to the kilowatts in the Northwest is 1,000,800,000 per year, according to what he told us, or just about 10 percent of the capacity of these two dams. That is what made me wonder to what extent the dams were able to produce elecricity, and if they were not doing it, why. I do not know whether you would have any information on that or not. Mr. HOLMES. I do not have the figures but do know those dams are producing all they can. I have never heard of such a statement of 10 percent of capacity. Mr. TABER. That is a very serious question to me. Mr. HOLMES. I do not have the statistical information to make the comparison. I am sure that the Bonneville Administration has all those facts. Mr. TABER. We asked for it and he did not have it. He said that he would furnish it to us, but it has not come. I do not know whether it is available or not. Mr. HOLMES. May I make the suggestion to you that you also get the statistics from the Army engineers and the Bonneville Power Administration. Mr. TABER. He said he would get that for us and give it to us. It has not yet arrived. Mr. HOLMES. Because I am sure that we have use for every bit of power we can produce out there, and more too. Mr. TABER. That is all I have. Mr. SCRIVNER. I assume, Mr. Holmes, that back of your thinking there is the thought that Ice Harbor is just one of the four projected dams up the Snake River? Mr. HOLMES. Well, I was interested in 1945 in getting them authorized in the rivers and harbors omnibus bill. Mr. SCRIVNER. What do you figure Ice Harbor is going to run? Mr. HOLMES. Approximately 87 to 89 millions of dollars. Mr. SCRIVNER. What will be the cost of the four dams? Mr. HOLMES. I do not have the late figures on them. Mr. SCRIVNER. Would $350,000,000 to $400,000,000 be approximately right? Mr. HOLMES. In the neighborhood of $300,000,000 as estimate perhaps for all four dams. Mr. SCRIVNER. What would be the effect upon the salmon run, if all four of those dams were built? Mr. HOLMES. I do not think it would have any potential effect upon the salmon run, because of the modern facilities and manner with which they will handle the salmon. Mr. SCRIVNER. There is a grave difference of opinion out there as to these dams, is there not? Mr. HOLMES. There is some difference of opinion. I have given you pertinent facts from exhaustive surveys that have been gone into thorughly. Mr. SCRIVNER. There are others who feel just exactly opposite from you? Mr. HOLMES. I understand so. Mr. SCRIVNER. You understand there is a supplemental estimate, not considered in the general appropriation bill, which, when it left the House and went over to the other body, was increased considerably. Those are some of the things that I have to take into consideration in my thinking on this, inasmuch as this is a supplemental bill and supposed to be urgent, and all that, when there is not time to let all |