industry that their orders, their suggestions, and their arbitrary pronunciamentos will not be given the credence, the prestige, the dignity, will not be answered in the way by all of the elements in the industry that would be the case if those orders and suggestions emanated from an authority which had a practical knowledge of the business. I am afraid it would meet with a degree of sullen resentment on the part of the people who are employed in the mining industry, because it would create a lack of confidence and a distrust.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you through, Mr. Lewis?

Mr. LEWIS. I may say, gentlemen, that in considering this subject matter the amount of time that it has been possible for me to give it attention, and if it is considered by you gentlemen, Congress, and the public that regulation of some sort is necessary and is essential and must be had, from my information on the subject I prefer to believe that the English plan is the most practicable working plan that could be applied. Perhaps not in detail, perhaps with such changes as changed conditions in this country or different conditions in this country would justify, but in the main I favor the English plan as a general proposition, providing it is agreed that regulation is necessary.

However, I am prone to say to-day that in so far as my judgment applies the chief cause of the high prices in this country to-day is the fact that our transportation facilities are totally inadequate to transport their increased tonnage that is desired in the markets, and that the mines would produce were those facilities adequate. I know of groups of mines, coal fields in this country to-day where the mines are only operating two or three days per week, simply because they are unable to get cars to transport their coal. It is useless to talk patriotism to those millions of miners, to ask them to work the longer hours or harder when they are only working three days in a week. They can not see the necessity for it. They say, "Furnish us more cars, increase the supply of coal, and if the supply is then inadequate and results are not forthcoming sufficiently it will be time to talk about other methods of stimulating production."

The transportation problem, in my belief, is the biggest problem to-day confronting the country in so far as supply of coal is concerned, the ability to transport that coal, and get it away from the mines. We have men and we have equipment to do sufficient to increase our tonnage to a tremenduous and prodigious degree on the annual production, provided the coal were hauled away from the mines and the mines permitted to operate.

As one of the gentlemen told you this morning, the Illinois mines operate one hundred and seventy odd days out of an approximate possible 300 days. Now, all that vast equipment in Illinois. represented by the capitalization of those mines and equipment of those great producing mines in Illinois and all of the 75.000 to 80,000 men in Illinois were idle 125 days or more during the year when they might have been producing coal. The same is true to-day to a degree. The mines in Illinois and in other sections-this applies elsewhere likewise-are idle day after day and the loss of all that labor, the loss of all that energy, the loss of all that coal that is so necessary to the country is caused because transportation facilities are totally inadequate. I feel that with the increase in transportation you are going to take away from

the coal speculators the one thing that makes it more possible for them to derive their huge profits than anything else, because increase in the distribution of coal will automatically, by the application of the ordinary laws of supply and demand, conserve and bring out the supplies of coal.

Senator SAULSBURY. Will you give a list of the mines operating, as you state, such a comparatively short time during the year, and the railroads that serve those mines?

Mr. LEWIS. I do not know that I could offhand give you any list that would be definite.

Senator SAULSBURY. I want to get down to cases, you know. There is where you get the real facts. I should like to know where you say this situation exists, so we might try to find the reasons.

Mr. LEWIS. I can say, roughly, to-day the car supply in Illinois is about 60 to 65 per cent of requirements.

Senator SAULSBURY. And what railroad is serving that section? Mr. LEWIS. All railroads which enter Illinois southern and central coal fields.

Mr. TAYLOR. I can give you the names more definitely, if you wish. They are the Chicago & Eastern Illinois, the Illinois Central, Chicago & North Western, Chicago, Burlington & Quincy, Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific, Chicago, Terre Haute & Southeastern-that is in Indiana-and the St. Louis, Troy & Eastern Railroads.

Senator SAULSBURY. This condition of 65 per cent efficiency prevails on all those roads, does it?

Mr. TAYLOR. There is not a road in Illinois that is giving the coal mines better than 65 per cent on the average.

Mr. LEWIS. Sixty-five per cent of requirements.

Senator SAULSBURY. Could the mines produce the additional 35 per cent if they had the transportation facilities?

Mr. LEWIS. Assuredly so.

Mr. TAYLOR. The miners are laying down doing nothing, and the mine lays idle because there are no cars.

Mr. KIRBY. And a heavy expense to the mines.

Mr. LEWIS. We have some gentlemen here to-day-they were here some time ago-operators from the bituminous coal fields of western Pennsylvania. And the same conditions apply there in a large way, gentlemen. The Pennsylvania Railway facilities are totally inadequate to handle a supply of coal in western Pennsylvania. The Baltimore & Ohio is likewise unable to carry the capacity of the mines. Senator SAULSBURY. Of what period are you speaking now?

Mr. LEWIS. I am speaking of the present and the past. For the past eight months, at least.

Senator CUMMINS. Mr. Lewis, I have heard long hearings upon that subject and the fact of car shortage is perfectly well established. I do not think anybody can doubt it. The railroads can not carry the traffic that is tendered to them at this time. They say that they have orders have an outstanding order for 147,000 additional freight cars, but owing to the industrial conditions throughout the country all the factories are employed to their full capacity and they can not furnish the cars, and therefore it seems almost impossible to look for any release immediately, anyhow, to an additional supply of freight cars or locomotives. Now, what are we to do in that connection?

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Mr. TAYLOR. Senator Cummins, when I am on the stand you ask me that question and I will respond to you candidly.

Senator CUMMINS. I shall be very glad when it comes.

Mr. LEWIS. Mr. Taylor is a member of our committee, representing six Western and Middle Western States, and has been giving special attention to that feature of improving the condition, etc.

Senator CUMMINS. Undoubtedly they are making great advances; they are more efficient than they formerly were: they are using cars to a better advantage, but they can not get the cars they need for the business.

Mr. TAYLOR. They can not get new cars. I think I can explain it to you later on.

Mr. LEWIS. The point I was desiring to make in connection with this car shortage was that emergency legislation of the character mentioned and introduced in Congress serves to palliate a condition which will continue to exist even after the legislation has passed. Improving the car supply of the Nation would remove a fundamental cause for the high prices, because with the inability of railroads to transport coal it permits those who are engaged in the coal industry and who are possessed of those human frailties which go with human nature, to a large degree, to secure fancy prices for their coal from the public, who are bidding against each other excitedly and extravagantly, and permit those brokers, middlemen, and speculators to take advantage of that condition and buy coal and sell it at prices which greatly exceed what they paid for it to the detriment of the public, and legislation, if properly applied, might prevent that coal being sold above a certain figure, although I really think it would be difficult to work out a system where it would apply generally and where it would prove successful in every way, but the only thing that will completely solve the proposition is the stimulation of transportation facilities to the end that they may adequately take care of the country's needs. You will always have the organic disease as long as that condition exists. You might apply surface applications, but they will never eradicate the malady. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lewis, assuming now that this committee, of which you are a member, should address itself to the question of securing reasonable prices, both to the Government, the allies, and the consuming public, of coal, what method would you advise that committee to pursue in the accomplishment of that purpose?

Mr. LEWIS. If the committee were not armed with any more authority than they have to-day, it would be a very difficult job for this committee to thoroughly perform that task, but if legislation is enacted along this line, if it is deemed the time is here for the application of some remedy that is going to end this condition of affairs, that the public can no longer tolerate it, then I would say we would have to invest the committee with sufficient authority by act of Congress to enable it to formulate its policies and force recognition of those policies from those engaged in the industry. Then it becomes the problem of the committee to find a plan, to work out the plan, and in working out the plan becomes the problem of the committee to fix the price and the degree of profit, which in itself is an extraordinary task-a very prodigious task, in my mind-to arbitrarily say how much profit shall a producer of a ton of coal be permitted to extort. But if the committee is clothed with that

authority, delegated by the Government with that task, they will have to shoulder the responsibility to work out some sort of a plan to meet requirements as nearly as their ingenuity can suggest.

The CHAIRMAN. Under your suggestion, would that committee have an absolutely free hand on the subject, or would you subject it to the directing power of the President of the United States?

Mr. LEWIS. Oh, I feel that the President should be given the directing power and charged with the responsibility; the committee should be answerable to the President. That is my personal opinion. The CHAIRMAN. Then, in the end, the action should be his action, as the result of his approval of the action of the committee? Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cummins, will you examine the witness? Senator CUMMINS. I have only a few questions to ask him, because I do not intend to go into detail. He has spoken of Senate resolution 77. I am just as much opposed to Government fixing wages and the conditions of labor by law as Mr. Lewis can possibly be. I have indicated that by my work in Congress in times past. I have introduced a bill which relates only to railroad coal, and which was intended to reach a certain definite end. I have assumed that the general work for the general public would be taken care of in the bill that is now pending before the Senate and that has passed the House, or in the resolution offered by the Senator from Ohio.

With that preliminary statement I want to see in how far we agree. The miner, and by the miner I mean the man who works for the operating company, must have and ought to have adequate compensation. I never like the term "living wage." I think he ought to have a little more than a living wage. All other expenses must be paid. There must be a fair profit to the operator or the miner will not get his proper wage. Now, to all that I agree.

Can you tell me how much capital it takes to produce a ton of coal in a year? Have you ever gone into those statistics? Mr. LEWIS. I could not, Senator.

Senator CUMMINS. The bill which I have introduced provides that the President shall fix a reasonable price to be paid by the railroad company, but that price shall not exceed the cost of production with 10 per cent added, and in order to find out whether 10 per cent added to the cost of production furnishes a fair profit I should like to know the amount of coal that $100 of capital would produce in the ordinary mine in the course of a year. Possibly you have not gone into that subject?

Mr. LEWIS. In the first place, Senator, there is no such thing as an ordinary mine, in my judgment.

Senator CUMMINS. We will take any mine that you are familiar with.

Mr. LEWIS. Physical conditions in the mines vary almost as this mine to that mine. The fissures may be the same, the depth may be the same, the character the same, and the strata overlying it and underneath it, but it all depends on the distance from the opening, the cost of haulage, the increased difficulty of removing a ton of coal from this mine as against this mine, and it is so related that it is impossible to make any average.

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Senator CUMMINS. All that relates to the cost of production and I did not mean those items, because I know they differ very widely with different mines, but take any mine with which you are familiar; take the mine or series of mines operated by Moderwell, do you know how much capital is earned by that company?

Mr. LEWIS. No, sir; I have no knowledge on that subject.

Senator CUMMINS. Do you know how much tonnage of coal it produces in the course of a year?

Mr. LEWIS. I have a general knowledge of the production in that field.

Senator CUMMINS. But not of those particular mines?

Mr. LEWIS. Only what I have heard Mr. Moderwell testify before this committee.

Senator CUMMINS. The only way in which it could be ascertained whether an advance of 10 per cent above the cost of production would furnish a reasonable profit or not, I take it, would be to determine how much capital was employed in the mine operations and then ascertain how much that mine could produce in the course of a year, you would then know how much profit would remain to distribute among the persons who held the capital of the company?

Mr. LEWIS. Well, in one locality coal would be worth $25 an acrethe coal rights, the mineral rights, and the seam of coal. Another locality, in the next township, it may be worth $50 an acre; it may cost $50 an acre, and over in the next county it may be worth $100 or $500 an acre.

Senator CUMMINS. Yet these companies must compete with each other and have the same price of coal?

Mr. LEWIS. They must compete with each other. One company may own 1.000 acres of coal and be operating a large mine on it. while an adjoining company may have 5.000 acres of coal land, all represented by the investment of capital, and only be able to operate the one opening or one mine for the output of coal; hence their investment is considerably greater than the other.

Senator CUMMINS. Undoubtedly, but the investment of a coal mining company which has included large tracts of land which can not be worked for years and years to come is not expected to be paid for in the operation of any particular mine, is it?

Mr. LEWIS. Well, this coal is sold largely in tracts; coal land is bought in tracts; it depends on the company's ideas and policies, etc., and their ability to secure the land, and of course all those things enter into that.

Senator CUMMINS. Of course if you have not looked into those statistics-I rather thought you had because you had charge of the statistics of the United Mine Workers. You have never gone into that particularly?

Mr. LEWIS. We have never entered into the amount of capital invested in the properties.

Senator CUMMINS. Remember that the plan to which I refer provides that, first, the mine owner shall be compensated or reimbursed for all the miners' wages or all the cost of maintenance of the mine, replacements, operation in every form, all fixed charges, such as taxes, interest on mortgages, and the like, all these things are to be allowed to him in order to ascertain the cost of production, and then he is to be allowed 10 per cent upon that in order to give him