Mr. MODERWELL. I do.

Senator POMERENE. That is all I care to ask.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. J. L. Lewis, of the United Mine Workers, is present. We will hear him.

STATEMENT OF MR. J. L. LEWIS, ASSISTANT PRESIDENT UNITED MINE WORKERS, SPRINGFIELD, ILL.

The CHAIRMAN. You will please state your name, occupation, and residence.

Mr. LEWIS. I represent the United Mine Workers; and am assistant president of that organization; residence, Springfield, Ill.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you go on in your own way and give a statement regarding this situation?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, as a representative of the United Mine Workers, I am a member of the coal committee of the Council of National Defense, and for the past 10 days or more I have been fully occupied in various conferences and subconferences being held by that committee on the subject matter now before your honorable body. I am representing here to-day, however, the United Mine Workers' organization, which comprises about 75 per cent of the coal miners engaged in the coal-mining industry of the United States. We are interested in this general legislation for two very material reasons, as follows:

We are interested in any legislation that will seek to establish a maximum or minimum price upon coal for the readily apparent reasons that our own interests are materially involved in the price of coal, and in our negotiations with the coal operators of the country, and at the various wage meetings we have from time to time the price of coal is a material factor in fixing the final base and the final decision on our wage contracts.

We are also interested in this legislation because, taking it in the abstract, Senate resolution 77, seeks to control the compensation of employees. In other words, it seeks to fix wages and change and affect conditions of employment.

The mine workers' organization does not believe that the time is here for the control by the Government, or by any agency of the Government, created by Congress or otherwise, of the conditions of employment and the wages and compensation paid to the workers in the coal mines of this country. We strive to fix those conditions and adjust those wages through the medium of joint conferences with the employers of men in the mines, the coal operators, and through the making of a trade agreement which runs over a period of time, and, in the judgment of our organization that basis and that plan is entirely satisfactory, and we feel that the problems affecting the miners and the operators in so far as these things apply, can be best worked out by those miners and operators rather than through the agency of the Government in seeking to arbitrarily fix wages and conditions.

Furthermore in England the Government has yet not found it necessary to arbitrarily fix these wages, and in England to-day, after several years of war, when the ordinary conditions of commerce and business throughout the country have been greatly disturbed, even

to a greater degree than has taken place in our own country as yet, those wages and those working conditions are still fixed through the medium of joint boards of employers and employees, perhaps with representatives of the Government acting in an advisory capacity to a greater or less degree, but largely through the instrumentality of the knowledge of the business and the desire to facilitate the production and promote the welfare of the country as exhibited by the employers and employees. That is a very particular objection which we have to the resolution as written.

Senator POMERENE. May I interrupt you just long enough to ask this: You are speaking now from the standpoint of a miner? Mr. LEWIS. Precisely.

Senator POMERENE. And you have expressed an objection to the President fixing this compensation, etc. Of course, you understand this is only intended to be during the period of the war?

Mr. LEWIS. Surely.

Senator POMERENE. You understood that, did you?
Mr. LEWIS. And one year after.

Senator POMERENE. Yes; you are right. Now, bearing that fact in mind, suppose it becomes necessary for the Government-assuming that this or similar legislation may pass, so that it might be wise for the Government to take over the control of these mines, in that event how would you have the question of wage fixed while the Government was thus operating?

Mr. LEWIS. Assuredly, Senator, if the Government took control and engaged in the operation of the mining industry of this country we assuredly would have to deal with the Government in fixing the hours of employment and wages.

Senator POMERENE. Assuming we had to take possession of these mines now for 12 months, and I do not understand from your last statement that you would have any objection to the Government, or somebody like the President, dealing with the miners in the fixing of wages, just as they now deal with the employers?

Mr. LEWIS. Providing, Senator, in our judgment conditions had become necessary to make essential such a drastic step, assuredly we would agree to deal and treat with members of the Government.

Senator POMERENE. That is only a war measure, and you and your organization would do like all the rest of us-we would do what the Government expected us to do, generally speaking?

Mr. LEWIS. Certainly.

Senator POMERENE. I realize the delicacy of the situation quite fully, and your suggestion is worthy of serious consideration. No doubt about that.

Mr. LEWIS. Our only point about the question is that we feel that conditions in this country have not changed sufficiently to render necessary the resort arbitrarily to such stringent measures in the matter of employment and hours and wages. We still have confidence that through the instrumentality of our joint negotiations and relations with the operators of this country that we can satisfactorily work out these problems as yet.

Senator POMERENE. May I ask you this further question in that connection? Are the miners generally-I am speaking generally, not as to locality-but, generally speaking, are they satisfied with the wages they are getting?

Mr. LEWIS. No, sir; I can not say that they are, because the cost of living during the past year or more has been mounting so rapidly and so entirely out of all proportion to the wages that are being paid that it would be absurd to say that the miners are contented under the condition of affairs.

Senator POMERENE. Then, of course, if the cost of living continues to increase, why, that would increase this feeling of unrest?

Mr. LEWIS. Precisely; and would result in a demand upon the part of the mine workers for further compensation, increased wages.

Senator POMERENE. And, of course, that same condition might apply whether the mines were being operated by the present owners and operators or by the Government?

Mr. LEWIS. Certainly.

The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed, Mr. Lewis.

Mr. LEWIS. Reverting again to the matter of the price of coal. We can readily understand that it is not so vital a question to the miners who are employed in the mine and who are actually engaged in the production of the coal as it is to the operator of the mines who has his capital invested in the properties, and he in his intimate associations day by day has to do with the questions of prices and profits in the sale of his coal and the operation of his business. Our interest in the matter as miners is the interest of desiring coal to be sold at a price which would not prevent the operator of the mine from paying a living wage to his employees and, at the same time, will not permit the operator of the mine to charge extortionate prices to the public, for the reason that the approximately million miners or mine laborers in this country are in themselves, as brought out a short time ago, large consumers of coal themselves and are intimately and directly affected by the increase of price on coal. It is true that in a few localities, where we have trade agreements with the operators, the price of coal is fixed to the miner, he receiving it directly at the pit mouth for a less price than charged the public, for the reason the operator is not compelled to load that coal on railroad cars, and for other reasons, and those groups of operators in a way show a benevolent spirit toward their employees, but in the main our miners are paying the same price for coal as the public. Senator LEWIS. When you use the word "miner man who is the mine workman or the owner of the mine? Mr. LEWIS. When I use the word "miner" I refer to the mine worker in and around the mines, the employee of the coal operators. Senator LEWIS. Did I understand you to say they are interested in the price of coal as consumers of coal?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

you mean the

Senator LEWIS. You refer to them as consumers in their habitations or in their line of business?

Mr. LEWIS. In their habitations, the coal they use in their habitations, Senator.

Senator SAULSBURY. Your organization is affiliated. I suppose, with the American Federation of Labor?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

Senator SAULSBURY. Does your organization join in the desire to have the foodstuffs regulated-the prices of foodstuffs regulated? Mr. LEWIS. The American Federation of Labor has in the main represented our views on that subject.

Senator SAULSBURY. And you believe in regulating the prices of food in the country?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

Senator SAULSBURY. How do you distinguish as between food and other necessaries? I do not want you to think I am indicating my opinion about it, but I want to know why, if we regulate the price of food, we should not regulate the price of other necessities, such as fuel?

Mr. LEWIS. I hope you have not understood me to say I was opposed to the regulation of any necessity. I am not here to-day saying that I am opposed to the regulation of the price of coal. We are opposed to the regulation by governmental agencies of conditions of employment and the fixing of wages and compensation.

Senator SAULSBURY. But necessarily if you fix the price of coal you fix the possibility of paying wages, do you not?

Mr. LEWIS. If you fix the price of coal arbitrarily assuredly you fix a limit beyond which wages can not go.

Senator SAULSBURY. Precisely.

Mr. LEWIS. But, in the matter of fixing the conditions of employment, control and compensation of employees, you go further and travel over more ground than we are ready to admit is necessary.

Senator SAULSBURY. You object to the direct regulation, but not to the indirect regulation?

Mr. LEWIS. We assuredly can not prevent the indirect regulation, if it be essential for the interests of the public and our Nation to arbitrarily fix the price of coal we must yield that much liberty of action as citizens and as patriots.

The CHAIRMAN. I would suggest that we allow Mr. Lewis to complete his statement before asking him further questions.

Mr. LEWIS. I was endeavoring to make it clear that our interest in the price of coal as a commodity was not the same interest as that of the operator. His interest is a matter of profit, a matter of safeguarding his business, the matter of being able to conduct his operations in a businesslike way that will safeguard his future, while our interest is not one of prices, not one of intimate connection with those prices, but it is merely, as I say, the object to enable us to buy coal at a price which we consider fair as consumers of that coal, and the object of having that coal sell at a price which will enable us to secure from the operators a living wage in the mines. That is our only interest in the matter of price.

Now, this matter has come before the coal committee of the Council of Defense, as has been told your committee by Mr. Woderwell, a distinguished representative of the operators, and we have conferred at length upon the proposition, and the question has arisen, in view of this pending legislation, that if legislation was passed by Congress, which sought to control the price of coal, by what agency would it be fixed?

It may be said, it may be inferred, that the coal committee of the Council of National Defense, composed of coal operators, coal miners, and certain representatives of the consuming public, of public utilities of the country, is hardly a fair committee to decide momentous questions. That personal equation could not be eliminated to a sufficient degree to justify the public in having confidence in such a

commission. But I think, and am very frank in saying to you, that if you accept those criticisms of such a constituted committee that there is no agency in this country that is competent to exercise such control over the coal industry. As a coal miner I seriously would object to any commission, composed of men who have no intimate knowledge of the coal business, such, if you please, as the Federal Trade Commission, enumerated in Senate resolution 77 here-I would object to that commission having great authority, almost unlimited authority over the coal industry to the degree that they might arbitrarily fix prices, might follow the coal into the markets and control the activities of brokers and scalpers and coal dealers, retail dealers and wholesale dealers, and arbitrarily have the power to fix wages, working conditions, and compensation for labor. I do not believe that they are competent, not because I have any doubt of the integrity or great ability of the distinguished gentlemen who compose that commission but because, from the very nature of things, the fact that they have not the intimate knowledge of the business and the industry which comes through a lifetime of association, I feel they could not acquire sufficient knowledge or sufficient ability to do that work in a way that would redound to the best interests of the country and public and protect the interests of the men who are engaged in that industry.

I have been a miner all my days. We meet in our conferences with the operators, gentlemen, like the representatives present here to-day, who have been engaged in operations of the mines of the country upon a greater or lesser basis all their lives, and it takes us weeks at times in our conferences to adjust ourselves to the new conditions and work out new policies that will be proved practicable, and in all of our contracts and wage conferences, and so forth, every word that is written into it; every paragraph and every line of every sentence and every period is the result of days and days of deliberation and of trying out those policies, putting them to a practical application, endeavoring to find some ground that will be mutually acceptable and work to the interests of both parties to the best degree. And disturbing those conditions by the Federal Trade Commission, or by any other agency of the Government that is not composed of the joint elements in the industry, would, in my judgment, prove entirely unsatisfactory, and would not bring about the results which would be sought by such legislation.

I feel that if legislation of this character is passed by Congress authorizing the President to take control of the industry in any degree whatsoever through the means of an agency delegated by him, that assuredly that agency should be composed of men who are familiar with the industry from the most intimate and practical standpoint in every way, and representative both of the capital represented in the industry and of the labor and human element which is represented by our organization. The consuming public should likewise be represented on an equal basis with these others, to the end that the interests of the public might be safeguarded to the fullest degree possible to be accomplished by human ingenuity. Any other policy, gentlemen, under my judgment, would prove to be a failure, because I know if you select a commission of men who are not familiar with the coal industry and give them authority over the