The CHAIRMAN. What is the source of the title of the landowners of these coal lands as a rule; some grants from the State or the Nation?

Mr. VINSON. A grant from the State.

The CHAIRMAN. A grant from the State?

Mr. VINSON. A grant from the State of Virginia originally.

The CHAIRMAN. Do they date back for a considerable period, as a rule?

Mr. VINSON. Virginia stopped giving grants. I think, in 1859. Since then West Virginia has

The CHAIRMAN. What are the terms of the leases, as a rule? Do they pay so much royalty per ton to the mine owner?

Mr. VINSON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What is that?

Mr. VINSON. It is from 10 cents up to 25 cents a ton.

The CHAIRMAN. Why should it vary in that way; according to the quality of the coal?

Mr. VINSON. According to the quality of the coal, Mr. Chairman, and then the facilities for mining cheaper, you know.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. VINSON. With a large number, a large majority of the mining operations are on the basis of 10 cents a ton. That is practically the minimum.

The CHAIRMAN. Taking these operating costs that have been referred to in Indiana by Gov. Goodrich, do they include such royalties as Mr. Vinson refers to?

Gov. GOODRICH. I think not.

Mr. VINSON. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Are the mines in that State as a rule owned by the companies or are they leased?

Gov. GOODRICH. No; they are frequently purchased. Then they have to erect their machinery, and then they buy the coal rights either directly or under a royalty contract. As a rule, the contract is made directly with the original landowner, and the royalty in our State runs from 5, and in some cases to 10, cents a ton, and it is a common practice for operating companies to have another company that they are related to that owns the land and leases to them upon a higher royalty than that. But the ordinary royalty to the owner is 5 to 10 cents; sometimes as low as 3 cents.

The CHAIRMAN. Not as high as 25 cents?

Gov. GOODRICH. No.

Senator POMERENE. Have you any further questions to ask, Governor?

Gov. GOODRICH. No. Yet I think I would like to have an estimate of the cost.

Mr. VINSON. I have no estimate, except what figures I have given. Gov. GOODRICH. Might I make just a little further statement about Indiana? Indiana has a regular union scale. The labor cost one year ago under the new scale was an advance over the previous rate of 52 cents for pick mining, and for machine mining, 64 cents. The rate under the last increase granted in April is 64 to 74 cents a ton. I shall be very much surprised if it is that high, or any higher than that in Virginia.

Mr. VINSON. On an average, it may not be; I do not know.

Gov. GOODRICH. As to the cost, on page 14 of this record, Mr. Bogle testified that the increased wages and increased cost of supplies amounted to from 20 cents to 35 cents a ton; and that a year ago the total cost in Indiana was $1.20 to $1.25.

Senator TOWNSEND. How much?

Gov. GOODRICH. That included, as I stated, the interest on investments, depreciation, royalty charges, and everything else.

It

His testimony is that it has now been raised to $1.58 a ton; that is, approximate. Mr. Freeman, the president of the Indiana Operators' Association, testified that it was $1.20 with all these items in. is now $1.60. Mr. C. C. Hall, who is secretary of the Indiana Operators' Association and an expert on rates, and who prepared a statement for the Indiana operators and figured everything of that kind, has figured the union cost, etc., to know what the cost is as compared with the cost of 1916; that year it was $1.148 a ton. To that he would add 14 cents a ton to cover the accident insurance, extraordinary items that could not be anticipated, an approximation of 14 cents a ton, making $1.28, and to that he would add this year 20 cents further, making the $1.48 I testified to this morning. Now, on this point I have this telegram about the West Virginia situation. I do not want to give the name of this firm, but it came to Senator Watson this morning. It is an Indiana firm that is a heavy buyer of coal, and quotes at the mine in West Virginia, the mine-run coal, lump coal, according to Government prices. I asked them to wire, and so I have

it here:

Elmer Miller Coal Co., Toledo, Ohio, quoting domestic lump, $3.50; mine-run Pocahontas, $3.25; Carbon Fuel Co., $3.50; domestic lump, unable to get price. Mine run. Mine quoting nothing but domestic. Will wire later if can get. Trying to.

The CHAIRMAN. Are those the same grades of coal that you produce in Indiana?

Gov. GOODRICH. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Are they higher or inferior?

Gov. GOODRICH. A better grade of coal. But ordinarily, as the gentlemen testified, it sells at the mines at the same prices as other coals. The price of Virginia coal at the mines is around a dollar a

ton.

The CHAIRMAN. How is it in normal times? What has been the relative prices of West Virginia coal as compared with the prices of Indiana coal?

Gov. GOODRICH. Domestic lump about $1.25 to $1.35 a ton.

The CHAIRMAN. Where?

Gov. GOODRICH. At the mine in Virginia.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of coal does that compare with in Indiana?

Gov. GOODRICH. It is a better grade of coal. The price in Indiana and Virginia, mine run and domestic lump, has always been the

same.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you account for that, if one is superior to the other? Should it not command a higher price on the market and at the mine as well?

Gov. GOODRICH. The average was $2.50; in Indiana, 50 cents; as a matter of fact, it is $1.50 higher by the time it reaches the consumer.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the coal have to go a longer distance than from Virginia ?

Gov. GOODRICH. Yes; it travels clear across Ohio.

Senator POMERENE. May I inject there that West Virginia coal can be mined and run through Ohio and delivered at Toledo cheaper than the coal in Hocking Valley can be sent to Toledo?

Gov. GOODRICH. No doubt. To get that, West Virginia has a lower cost than the three other States. I differ from the gentlemen on that. They have a very low mining cost in that State.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you understand that their freight cost in every direction is higher than it is in Indiana and Ohio?

Gov. GOODRICH. No.

Senator CUMMINS. That depends on the length of the haul.

The CHAIRMAN. It depends on the length of the haul on some

routes.

Senator POINDEXTER. The length of the haul and the route.

Senator POMERENE. Under the law in every State every operator is controlled; the labor cost is a question that can be ascertained. My information has been that mining conditions in Virginia were more favorable than in any other State and that they could mine it cheaper.

Mr. VINSON. I think that is quite true in some instances.

Gov. GOODRICH. Perhaps.

Senator POMERENE. I think that is the general rule. We buy hundreds of thousands of tons of Virginia coal at 70 cents at the mines and $1.25 at the mines.

Gov. GOODRICH. You get it much less than it costs, then. You will admit that you get it at less than it costs. I mean the cost of West Virginia coal. They make some profit outside of their mining operations, but their labor cost used to be under 50 cents.

Mr. VINSON. Yes. That is quite true. Six or seven years ago it was under 50; four or five years ago it was under that.

Gov. GOODRICH. If you take the average, the labor cost last year was less than 50 cents a ton. I would not be very much surprised if it was 70 now.

Mr. VINSON. I do not know what the average would be.

The CHAIRMAN. Governor, is there anything that you want to put into the record?

Gov. GOODRICH. I do not think so. This is the testimony of the operators before our committee. You have a copy of this [indicating] and also a copy of this [indicating].

The CHAIRMAN. What is that?

Gov. GOODRICH. This [indicating] is the testimony of the Indiana operators before our public-service commission, setting out the details of the case, and they go into it very fully.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions? Senator Pomerene, do you want to ask any questions?

Senator POMERENE. Mr. Vinson, when you spoke of getting a certain per cent of car supply, what did you mean by that-"“full” car supply?

Mr. VINSON. I mean a sufficient car supply, Senator, that will accommodate the capacity of the mines to produce coal on that day. Senator POMERENE. And during the past six months, what has been that per cent?

Mr. VINSON. On the Chesapeake & Ohio it has averaged about 50, and on the Norfolk & Western between 50 and 60 per cent of the car supply would cover the situation as it has been in West Virginia. Senator POMERENE. Between 50 and 60 per cent of the car supply would cover the situation in West Virginia during the last six months?

Mr. VINSON. Yes, sir.

Senator POMERENE. What was the per cent of car supply last year during these same months?

M.. VINSON. It was better.

Senator POMERENE. How much better?

Mr. VINSON. I could not tell you.

Senator POMERENE. Approximately? Have you not some information?

Mr. VINSON. I can only give you an illustration: One mine that I know about personally produced last April a year ago on full car supply 265,000 tons; that is a group of mines owned by one concern. This April the same concern only produced 165,000.

Senator POMERENE. In the West Virginia district there has been less coal produced in the last six months than the corresponding six months of last year, has there not?

Mr. VINSON. No, sir; I think not.

Senator POMERENE. Have you the figures?

Mr. VINSON. No, sir; I will get them for you.

Senator POMERENE. I will be very glad to have them. In the country generally there has been more coal produced in the last six months than in the corresponding months last year and the year before.

Mr. VINSON. I think that is true.

Senator POMERENE. Yes. So that when you attempt to charge the present high prices of coal to lack of car supply that does not explain the situation, does it? Is that a sufficient explanation of the increase? Mr. VINSON. I think it does.

Senator POMERENE. Let us see. Suppose a hundred cars are necessary for the supply in a given time, and you only get 50 cars there. Will you explain why you are justified in doubling, trebling, or quadrupling the price charged? Why is the coal operator justified in so doing?

Mr. VINSON. The coal operator does not do that. The buyer quadruples or fixes the price.

Senator POMERENE. Most of that coal is sold direct to the consumer instead of through the dealer, is it not?

Mr. VINSON. Back about eight months ago, yes; since that time, no. The purchaser of the coal has come to the mine and bought it of the operator and offered the price and made the price.

Senator POMERENE. You take it right along?

Mr. VINSON. Certainly.

Senator POMERENE. Take two or three or four times the amount which you would have been satisfied with ordinarily?

Mr. VINSON. Yes; in some instances.

Senator POMERENE. And, notwithstanding that condition, you suggest to this committee that there should be no legislation on this subject until there is an investigation into the cost of producing coal?

Mr. VINSON. That condition has already been remedied, Senator; it has already been fixed.

Senator POMERENE. You are now getting twice what you got a year ago for it.

Mr. VINSON. That may be very true.

Senator POMERENE. And in the Ohio district, as you know, the coal that we used to get at 90 cents a ton at mine run of mine they have been charging $4.50, and $5.50 for.

Mr. VINSON. I understand that the people in Ohio have paid a very high price.

Senator POMERENE. Yes, sir; and so have your people in West Virginia.

Mr. VINSON. That is true.

Senator POMERENE. A good deal of that coal goes into Ohio.
Mr. VINSON. Yes; quite a lot of it.

Senator POMERENE. And are you able to give us the figures now as to what the average cost of coal is in West Virginia?

Mr. VINSON. No, sir; nor is anybody else. The figures have not been compiled.

Senator POMERENE. Do you mean to say the operators do not know what the cost of production of coal is in West Virginia?

Mr. VINSON. Absolutely, I say that.

Senator POMERENE. Then you are not in a position to advise us what we should do in this matter.

Mr. VINSON. No; except I would advise the committee to find out what the cost of coal is in the only way you can do so intelligently.

Senator POMERENE. I think I know what it costs within a reasonable degree of certainty. Now, another proposition: A good deal of this coal has gone down the river from West Virginia to Cincinnati, Louisville, and on down the Mississippi Valley.

Mr. VINSON. Yes..

Senator POMERENE. For years past?

Mr. VINSON. Yes, sir.

Senator POMERENE. Do your coal companies own these barges? Mr. VINSON. There are some barges owned by our company in Kanawha. They are principally owned by the Pittsburgh Coal Co. I mean the upper river traffic in coal is done from Pittsburgh. All that we do is to ship it to and from Kanawha.

Senator POMERENE. Does the Pittsburgh Coal Co. ever operate in West Virginia?

Mr. VINSON. They buy coal there for their barge supplies. They did last year.

Senator POMERENE. You know, as a matter of fact, do you not, that most of these barges are tied up there against the river banks all along down the river?

Mr. VINSON. I do not know it, Senator, but I assume it to be so. May I explain why?

Senator POMERENE. Yes, sir.

Mr. VINSON. Because at this time of the year the river is so low you can not use barges.

Senator POMERENE. My dear sir, have you examined that river? Mr. VINSON. I live on it, and I ought to know.